Transcript: Workplace Technology that Can Transform Your Organization

Anytime you give people choice in the conditions in their space, if it's where you sit, if it's being able to find things very quickly or be connected to events or classes that are going on, anytime you bring connectivity, you give people choice that mentally and in some cases physiologically. If you think about lighting temperature or brightness, there are certain ranges that people perform more optimally at. So I think the short term, the more you have these disparate systems connected, talking to each other and engaging the occupants directly, in most cases through a mobile app, that has real impact in the short term.

In the long term, if you can track every variable that goes into a building, and we talked about on the show before with the ever broadening number of sensors that go into the modern building, hashtag IoT, there's a growing opportunity to model that even further and be able to make better operational and design decisions moving forward. Hello and welcome to the Constructor Podcast, the future of the built environment. I'm your host, Brittany Campbell-Turner, and this podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects.

We talk about fostering trusting relationships, help you to understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule, and most importantly, exceed your end user's desires. Welcome to this episode of the Constructor Podcast. Last time we spoke with Randy Deutsch, he's an architect, educator, author, and speaker. He received the AIA Young Architect Award in Chicago for having designed 100 large complex sustainable projects. We talked about what a super user is and how they have the wherewithal to recognize tools, have curiosity, have the capacity and creativity to combine those tools, and last but not least, how they have interpersonal intelligence to connect with others.

We also talk about how the cohort, Generation Z, might just be the perfect generation to step into the super user role. We talk about the 10 super user powers that are embodied in a super user and why companies should be looking for recruits that have these super powers, or just foster those individuals who are already in their organizations. If you haven't listened to that episode yet, check it out at Constructor.com slash Randy Deutsch. Today in this episode, I speak with Drew Debreest, Digital Solutions and Strategy Lead at Host by CBRE.

He spent 15 plus years in the building automation and workplace technology world, working hand in hand with facilities managers, MEP consulting engineers, corporate real estate professionals, and enterprise IT leaders to better automate buildings and delight the folks who spend time there. We talk about Drew's favorite smart building. We talk about the future of converging technologies to tie into building automation. And we talk about this great renaissance for the built environment where energy, sustainability, wellness initiatives are all merging together to help the rapidly advancing technology. Last but not least, we talk about Drew's new endeavor with Host by CBRE.

Listen in. All right. So today we are speaking with Drew Debreest, Digital Solutions and Strategy Lead for Host by CBRE. First and foremost, Drew, welcome to the Constructor Podcast. Brittany, thanks for inviting me.

I'm excited to be here. I've been a fan for a couple of years, so a little bit surreal to be on the digital couch, but happy to be here for sure. This isn't the first time that we're connecting. Fortunately, both of us are in Chicago. Both of us are involved at Cornet.

And you've extended the invitation first to actually be one of the presenters at a Young Leaders event at Cornet. So I got to thank you for that. Certainly. It's always a good time. That's a big part of what we do at Cornet.

I've been on the board for a couple of years trying to help identify young talent to come into the industry. They're college kids or young leaders, the event that you spoke at, to try to help expose more of this world to folks who might not know about it and want to get involved. So it was great to have you and happy to return the favor, so to speak. Today we're going to talk a little bit about what you're up to. But can you first and foremost share a little bit about your background and what has brought you to what you're doing today?

I grew up, if you will, in the smart building space over the last 15 years or so. I spent 12 years at a major building automation manufacturer, doing everything from writing programs to building graphics to project management. When it's a dark side of sales at a certain point, that's what I cut my teeth on is temperature controls, HVAC and lighting. I spent a couple of years at a startup called Comfy. It was my first real foray into workplace experience, technology, mobile apps, really kind of turning that back of house technology into more front of house, experiential type technology.

And then from there, I spent a year at Aon, the global financial services firm, where I was leading real estate technology from an IT perspective. So my team there was responsible for everything from AV to mobile apps to room reservation, everything in between. About a month ago, my friends at CBRE gave me a shout and said, hey, we're building something that kind of hangs on all of those things that you've been passionate about for the last four or five years. Do you want to come help us build it?

So here I am about a month, a month and a half or so into a new gig and still drinking from the fire hose, as they say, but it's all good. That's a really great synopsis of the history and the journey that you've been through. Since you're on the IT side, I'm sure you connect with all the different obstacles that can be faced, whether it's on facilities, whether it's HR, you kind of touch all the different aspects of how a business might be working and the needs of an organization.

So I think that's really cool that you have that perspective that some of us who might be in the industry who have been listening to this podcast don't necessarily have. So I think that's really fun. I think you're spot on. I mean, a lot of where we've seen the industry evolve, especially in the last five years or so, there are many new stakeholders that did not put much focus on facilities or workplace before and now have a very vested interest. So we have to learn how to speak to multiple different people at the same time in different languages.

So it keeps it fun and challenging. Yeah. So, I mean, what would you say are your biggest opportunities as it relates to communicating with different stakeholders, whether it be facilities or workplace and even HR? What are your, I don't want to say your tactics, but like, what do you have to shift? What do you have to change?

How does that language change? Sure. And it's an excellent question that probably has its own four hour episode to sign, communicating across various stakeholders and change management and whole package. Well, I mean, what do you think is most important? If you were to pick top one or two things, like, what would you say is most important to talk to workplace and then what's top to talk to HR?

Okay. So, I mean, the underlying philosophy of what is most important to each person that you were trying to convince of some new technology in this case and say workplace, typically trying to find value on how they spend their money. So if it's capex for a new project, it's op-ex out of an existing budget, trying to find ways to prove value of workplace technology market that is still relatively young. A lot of these things haven't really hit the market until the last three or five years.

I think a lot of people are still trying to wrap their arms around what do we compare some of these products to that we've historically paid money for. From a workplace perspective, let's say you're building a new office and you're moving a thousand people, historically, you generally have a budget set aside for how many new workstations are going in? Are we getting new desk setups? What are we doing for conference rooms? Every other piece of technology that goes into the physical space.

When it gets to things like mobile apps and broader analytics platforms, these are things that they historically haven't considered paying for. So the biggest priority in that case from a workplace perspective is what value are you getting when you invest in these types of things? It's employee experience, it's engagement, and then it's measuring the impact of these technologies on the back end. So things like how are people utilizing space? How often are they booking conference rooms?

How many people show up to meetings? Are you building the right kind of space? It's kind of that twofold package of what are your employees getting out of it? And then how can you learn from that as you iterate moving forward? And on the HR side, I think it's even more so on the overall experience as someone moves throughout the office day to day.

I think we're all seeing that with labor markets where they are in particular, competition for talent is perpetual. The massive attrition of trying to recruit and onboard someone new to your company who may have left, that's expensive. So there are means and mechanisms you can put in place in the workplace to attract that high caliber talent that you want to recruit anyway, but then keep them there, keep them engaged, leveraging tools of the physical space and then digital things like technology to keep them there. And then even further with things what host is doing of bringing in hospitality trained people to kind of curate those experiences.

So workplace becomes more of a destination. That's the HR priority. The folks that I've talked to, how do we get people here? How do we keep them here? How do we keep them engaged and productive?

So we're getting value and long term stays, if you will, from people that were spending money to bring in. A lot of these things are related, but to your point, you really have to be able to mode shift a bit to have those different nuanced conversations. What I find most interesting is that your background in analyzing data coming through like a building automation system is going to look a lot different than what it will look like in some of the opportunities that I think you're working on with host and to articulate how that can help with things like managing a facility and different operations needs that really opens up a door for thinking about how to support workplace differently.

And like you said, it's real. It's really new that people are thinking about this. Do you find that the goals are a bit merging between workplace and HR? Obviously, you listed a litany of amazing things that I want to dig into like attrition and investment for keeping employees. But do you see that merging happening?

I think they're starting to. And at least in my experience, the market is kind of at that turning point where IT, FM, workplace, HR are starting to realize that no matter what phrase you describe it, if it's smart building or intelligent building or workplace experience, technology, you know, any of these buzzwords that industry tends to throw around, it feels like and it seems like just seeing the clients that are starting to invest in this package. The goals are aligning. They're starting to. There's still some conflicting areas of how to implement, how to support.

But the overall recognition, there are many more companies now than there were five years ago raising their hand saying, we see the need for a better experience for our employees at work. We want a quote unquote smart building. Not everybody really knows what that means necessarily, but they know that they have to start budgeting for it and then go out and find partners to help them do it. So to your point, these various departments and stakeholders, it seems like they are aligning and starting to move forward to go actually do it, which is exciting.

Five years ago, we didn't have that. And now we're getting more people kind of moving in the right direction to actually go do some of the stuff instead of just talk about it. I'm wondering, do you think there's an obstacle because of the way that departments tend to budget for rolling out projects like a new build out, like you mentioned before? It can be if there's not a great deal of strategy behind doing it. Clients I've seen who do this well, A, have some degree of alignment on budget.

They've spent a lot of time, a lot of thought and a lot of care in how to plan out, you know, are we going to run a pilot in one site? And then if we when we build a new headquarters in two years, we'll be ready to go full scale across the entire space. But that takes a degree of sitting down and recognizing if we've got a big compelling event coming up, like a new headquarters or a flagship office that's relocating, being able to allocate capex to some degree of workplace technology, but then also building in a lot of these tools are going to be software as a service.

So there's an ongoing subscription component as well. So the folks that I see doing this well are having conversations around both. They know they need to invest in some big project, but then to do it well and keep people engaged and adopted and whatever the platform is. They've also got to look at it long term. So it's a little bit of both.

Oh, makes total sense. Total sense because I mean, when you roll out a project within the organization, this is something I'm thinking through right now, like just making sure that cross departmentally, they're making decisions that that are going to help them support their long term goals within the organization. And I guess coming back to the HR discussion, things like attrition, that's a huge deal, especially if you're moving, if you're moving to a location that may not use the same means of transportation to get there. You know, that's a concern.

But I'm also thinking through like, how does this tie into say, well-being or health and the opportunities like the type of data that can be tracked in order to support some of the initiatives? Well, how do you see this type of data being utilized? So I think there's two similar but different components that go into how workplace tech is driving and impacting overall wellness within the office. The short term, kind of the transactional piece and the well standard reflects a little bit of this is that anytime you give people choice in the conditions in their space, if it's where you sit, if it's being able to find things very quickly or be connected to events or classes that are going on, anytime you bring connectivity, you give people choice that mentally and in some cases, physiologically, if you think about lighting temperature or brightness, there are certain ranges that people perform more optimally at.

So I think the short term, the more you have these disparate systems connected, talking to each other and engaging the occupants directly, in most cases through a mobile app, that has real impact in the short term. In the long term, if you can track every variable that goes into a building, and we've talked about this on the show before with the ever broadening number of sensors that go into the modern building, hashtag IOT, there's a growing opportunity to model that even further and be able to make better operational and design decisions moving forward.

It's something that Host is moving very quickly into, the concept of the digital twin. So placing sensors throughout a building for occupancy, for utilization, for environmental factors, pulling things in from the BAS, from anything that has an API effectively, punching everything into a software model that lives in a server somewhere, then you can go into this model and you can start changing variables on the fly to see how does shifting a utilization rate affect other factors? How does a temperature in one room affect all these other outcomes?

Which is exciting. It feels like there are other industries that have been there for a while. Financial services world, 10 years ago, you could model a stock portfolio and on your own time, in that model, change a couple of factors and see what happens to your overall position. To be able to do that with buildings with this very rapidly growing digital twin concept is super exciting. So even with the state of where we are with technology infrastructure and sensors now, it's only going to get better because now we have this growing concept to model things on the side and help that make better decisions.

Ultimately, that's how you get spaces to be healthier and attribute to wellness even further. It's all moving in the right direction, it seems like. Could you give us some examples of the type of data that people in the industry are tracking to help make some of these better decisions? Beyond the basics of what building automation has been doing the last 20 or 30 years, environmental things like temperature, humidity, light levels, carbon dioxide levels, and volatile organic compounds or VOCs, the environmental piece in the last four or five years has been proven.

There's been research. My favorite is a series of studies out of Harvard basically connects the impact of better indoor environmental conditions with higher cognitive function. Punchline is that if you work in a building that optimizes the indoor space for your own health, you are 300% better at high level thinking, making decisions, being strategic. So that's kind of one slice. You've got environmental that make people smarter.

You've got things around the space utilization has become very commonly discussed in the last two or three years. So putting occupancy sensors throughout a space, which can anonymize. If I know Brittany was at her desk and then she visited these three conference rooms and she stayed there for 45 minutes in each particular room, pairing that with calculating density. So not only how many conference rooms do I need, but what size of conference rooms do I need? Do I have a large number of 10 seat conference rooms that only two people are showing up to?

You have 80% unused space and square footage is expensive. If you can leverage data to show somebody that you're only using 40% of your space over time, that helps drive financial decisions. So those have been the big two that really have been kind of put into practice. How are people using the space? And then what is the indoor environmental quality like to your point about wellness?

Past that, we hear a lot of folks talk about badge data. So just kind of who's visiting the space from time to time to get really any deeper beyond that. You start running up against data privacy, other kinds of concerns, whereas an occupancy sensor and a thermostat, they don't really know who you are. They don't care to know who you are. They just want to know how you're using the space.

Those have been the big two that we've seen. There's a lot you can do with both of those. Nice. When you talked about having higher cognitive function, I would love to be able to pull that Harvard report and put that here in the show notes if that's available and you can share that with the audience here. Yeah, definitely.

That's huge. I know, right? 300%. Come on. Like 230.

I'm like, okay, I just had lunch. I'm struggling, right? And I think if you do have a way to measure that environment, whether it be light levels, humidity, temperature, all of those things are so invaluable when you can make slight changes in order to improve the cognitive function of people working at your organization. I mean, that turns into dollars. Oh yeah, big time.

ROI for your organization. Yeah, it's huge. And the study that there was, I think, up to the third or fourth study out of the TH Chan, I believe it's the public health school at Harvard, they ran that calculation. Exactly what you're describing, it's increase your ventilation rates, make the air healthier to breathe. The skeptics are going to say certainly that it's going to cost a lot of money on energy and upgrades to the mechanical system.

The researchers ran those numbers and said, yep, here you go. It's going to cost you this much. But to your point, your people are going to be this much more productive. So the net gain is significantly higher on productivity that you're capturing from people being awake and being healthy and getting enough sleep at night. The shocking thing in this first report came out in late 2015, I believe.

It was really the first of its kind to make that direct connection. In interviews that I've seen with Dr. Joseph Allen was the gentleman who led the team. That was one of the first things he said. He said, our team sat down and we were trying to prove this thing that people talk about anecdotally, like you're saying.

I go to lunch, I get tired, I feel sluggish at work. I don't feel productive in some spaces. And he said, they started looking around and couldn't really find anyone had made that science and the connection before. I'll send you a link to the study. There's a video where they talk to how they actually did it.

It's pretty slick. It's very impressive and the numbers speak for themselves. Yeah, that's awesome. And I've interviewed Lee Stringer, who's written the Healthy Workplace. Oh yeah.

And then Rex did a follow up, but a totally different take on workplace health with a healthy workplace nudge. And we do talk a lot about that. But one thing Rex picked up was the concept of return on humans and how it's more important that return on investment. That's a completely different take on this ROI thing that we're talking about. Yes, the companies do end up getting dollars, but your people are actually happier.

Who doesn't want that for an organization, right? Exactly. Oh, that's huge. That we're having that conversation in this industry where a lot of decisions are focused on ROI and payback. Return on humans.

I'm going to have to start borrowing that. That's good. Yeah, totally take it. And check out the book. I'll actually link those two interviews to this one because I think they dig into this quite a lot.

What you're talking about is how organizations can literally tangibly monitor what's happening in the organizations and track what's happening. Tell me a little bit about hosts and share a little bit about how it works. And I think you talked a little bit about heat mapping already, but can you just dig into what you can share of the development? Sure. So the overall platform, I'm struggling to find the right word if it's platform or suite of services that really make up hosts, focus exactly on what you and I have been talking about here.

And we go after this from both the science of everything that we just went through, a mobile app that really helps people be more productive throughout their day. It's helped me find a place where I can work quietly. Helped me find a conference room that's available. Helped connect me to events and classes that are going on in the building that I might not have otherwise known about. Helped me navigate across this large corporate campus to get to a meeting that starts in six minutes so I'm not late and don't get stuck with all the action items again.

So really kind of continuing to elevate that productivity piece. So the value there is I'm not fumbling for time trying to find a space where I can work the best. So the science component there, we combine that with the art of people. So hosts as a philosophy recognizes that to really give people their best day at work, you cannot just do that with technology alone. And a lot of our clients are really buying into this concept as well that yes, we want a mobile app because people love it.

That's where society is. We live in a consumer app driven world where you use 40 different apps throughout your day. And for a lot of companies still when you walk in the front door at the office at 9am, that experience stops. You can't really use your device for anything else. So we're very deeply ingrained on the technology side, but then on the people side, you think about kind of the broader really great hospitality experiences that you have in your personal life.

So you go to Disney World for vacation, or you go to Nordstrom to go shopping, or Zappos for ordering shoes where everything is human driven, customer focused. That's what we provide for a large number of our corporate clients or actual human people that we hire as part of the host team. We train them in a deep philosophy of hospitality. And a lot of the folks that I work with aren't all IT nerds like me. They grew up in food and beverage or hospitality or events, and they just know how to create and curate personal experiences human to human.

So we staff hosts to work what I would call the front of house for welcoming in guests or helping them find things around the office, helping people find the great restaurants locally to either take clients or take new hires. They assist with onboarding. Their job really is to be a shepherd and a guide, if you will, for anyone trying to navigate a modern office. So it's that two pronged attack in a positive way to help people be more productive and just really feel more comfortable in all facets of the word in the workplace.

And then on the back end, kind of what I alluded to earlier, with some of the analytics and data you're able to pull out of how people are using mobile app technology. When you pair that with occupancy centers and rooms and centers at desks and beacons for wayfinding to help people move around the office, we funnel all that into a digital twin infrastructure and can really start to model how some of these spaces are being leveraged. And to your point, there's a lot of insight you can pull out once you start comparing all these disparate data sources against each other.

So that's kind of the short version. We're partnering closer with our counterparts throughout CBRE, who are historically facilities experts, smart buildings experts, people who just know space and get people who work there. So we've only been here about there's a massive amount of potential here to combine this deep level of building knowledge and people knowledge and excited to see where it goes. Yeah. I think what's most interesting is that two-part approach that you're describing with the hospitality function.

That is that soft-skilled touch that I think would really make the difference there. I think that's really cool. It is. And it's one of those things where I think some people don't get it until they've experienced it, until they've been to an office where when you walk in, it's like walking into a high-end hotel. You feel like your needs are being met and in many cases anticipated before you even think about it.

So that's the piece that goes into both the people and technology side. On the people side, you have trained hospitality experts who know what to expect that people are going to have needs and assistance with. On the technology side, you start layering in machine learning and other deeper data analysis and the tech can anticipate things too. So it all seems to float together really nicely. Yeah.

I have a follow-up question here as we're talking about hosts, but I know that you have a lot of industry knowledge here. I'm curious as to whether you have a smart building favorite. You've been probably looking at smart buildings for a long time. Is there any particular one that you would say, Hey, you know what? I would want to design a place like this or be engaged with making a building work like this one.

I think I will always have a soft spot for the edge. Deloitte's building in Amsterdam, because it was the first that really got publicized. I mean, this was, memory is fuzzy, 2014, 2015, when I think a lot of building systems were just figuring out what an API was and how to start sharing their data beyond it. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there have been others since, but just the fanfare that it got, the thing that at least publicly, this feels real.

That when you drive in, a camera recognizes your license plate and tells you where to park. Everything inside is censored and adapts to how people move around the space. And it just, I don't know, that one's the one that stands out. Do you have any others that you had an eye on? So in our backyard, in the West Loop McDonald's headquarters, I've seen, you mentioned Cornet, so Scott Phillips, who's had a workplace there at McDonald's, I've seen him present their new headquarters and the links that they went to for technology.

I think I've heard him give this talk three times now, which is well-deserved. I mean, the work that that team put in to bring that space to life, to move 2000 plus people from the suburbs of Chicago to downtown, to the West Loop, one of the hottest neighborhoods in the city, that's a big change. And to put in effort to provide a space for employees that goes along with that bigger change is another positive one to see. So a little biased because it's in our backyard.

And you've seen the presentation quite a few times. I've seen the presentation. We had a Cornet tour of the space. It's phenomenal. I know some friends that have worked on it.

It's a nice shining gem in our own backyard at home. Another follow-up, are there any technologies that you're interested in potentially integrating with the data collection here, machine learning, AI? What do you think the opportunities are with convergence of other technologies, with utilizing this type of data that's being collected through IoT? I think the biggest opportunity, and it's something I've had conversations with clients, with other vendors, with everybody, it seems like the last five years, I think we're still at a core state of how do you even get data out of the building consistently?

Had this conversation four hours ago with somebody actually of you can pick 10 different class A million square feet office buildings who may have 10 different building automation systems. Even if they were all the same manufacturer's hardware, there's still a chance that whoever programmed those buildings used a different naming convention for every single type of equipment as an integrator to go in and try to pull in and ingest all of that data. I think we still have a ways to go and making that a more seamless automatic process.

The industry has made some steps, some advances in the last five years, but that is a, I've heard that from so many different people of still being a bit of a barrier and pulling that data out. So there's some promise to it. There's independent projects like Project Haystack that's looking at data tagging, kind of finding a more universal way to name data points that come out of sensor driven buildings. It's basic and it's not as slick as some of the other things that are out, but it has impact.

If we can collectively find a way to get data out 50% more efficiently, I think a lot of this takes off even faster. There's so many initiatives out there now for setting up some standardized approach to naming or even processes. I hear a lot about COBE and BIM now. It's been around for a long time, but it seems like it's getting sort of a resurgence. I can imagine, and I've heard of Haystack before, but now I'm going to do a little bit more research on it.

I can see why just data in general, we have to start thinking about how can we use what we're doing on every single project to inform us to be smarter and get some lessons learned out of it so that we can aggregate that and be smart about how to approach things the next time we do this over and over and over again. Exactly. That's the only way to scale it. Maybe it's because we're still somewhat in the infancy or moving into more of the adolescent stage of data-driven buildings and optimizing things based on that.

At least people are talking about it. I think a lot of them recognize that that's a big chance for our improvement and opportunity. The more open that these data sources can get, more of the things that you're talking about will start to happen at scale, which is what we all want. Let me ask you this question as sort of a pre-closing question. How often do you see the conversations that we're having happen early on enough in the project to really make a lasting decision, if you will, or one that is really informed prior to stepping into design on a construction project?

I'd say five years ago, very rarely. I can remember one project out of maybe 10, if we're talking 2013, 2014. But now it's at least the ones that I'm privy to knowing about early on. A lot of the clients that we're hearing from right now that are smart building friends within CBRE tag us in on, these projects are 18 months to two years out, where we've got some big companies saying, hey, we know we want to do something. The range is kind of, we know we want to do something, we have a very specific experience that we want to build for our employees in mind.

So, I mean, just off the top of my head, there's probably four or five that I know of that would not go live and deploy for a year and a half, two years. But we're having those conversations now around, we've got a new building going up and you know this very, very well. That is the perfect opportunity to do something latest and greatest, cutting edge. You can specify what hardware needs to go in, what sensors, what protocols you need to be able to speak, how we're going to build the network, how that's going to fly with information security and just get it all settled now before you set the first beam.

So it's certainly, I mean, I think we're almost there. The companies who have made the decision, like we talked about earlier, where their stakeholders have aligned, they know they want to invest the money. We're starting to hear much earlier of, hey, let's design and build an integrated package that couples operational technology with experience technology and we want to put analytics and machine learning on top of it. Yeah. Much closer to that being the dominant method of moving into design and construction than we certainly have in the past.

Yeah, that's awesome to hear. It definitely gives a sense of the trending that's taking place in the industry and the built industry. Oh yeah, thanks for all the knowledge drops. Is there anything else that you want to share that I missed that you wanted to cover here? I think it's a fantastic, exciting time that we're all lucky to be a part of with this kind of shift in the last five to 10 years from buildings that were primarily focused on energy efficiency and then it was sustainability.

And now a lot of what you're talking about with wellness, with health of the employees inside the building, with how do we make people happier, how do we delight them, so to speak, that that is becoming more of a design focal point. I think that's awesome. That is, it's super refreshing and it's, it feels like one of those Renaissance periods that some industries go through. I think we're all super fortunate to be a part of and be engaged with. So the more that we collectively can have conversations like these, the better off everybody is going to be.

And to what you mentioned earlier, keep driving return on humans, just as much as we're driving ROI. That's awesome. So Drew, thank you so much. Can you share with the audience how people can get in touch with you or learn more about what you're doing? Sure thing.

So being a child of the 90s and the rise of social media, if you Google my name, you'll generally find LinkedIn or Twitter as the top two. That's the easiest, most direct way. Either of those are fairly straightforward. I'm always happy to grab coffee and GM on things like this, especially if you're in Chicago. I do travel a bit as part of our host endeavors as well.

So you happen to be a part of the Cornet or you go to any Cornet events, I like to stamp my passport at chapters around the country when on the road. So if I can ever be of any help to anybody that either wants to geek out on building tech or just hang out and say, hi, certainly please let me know. I'd love to do it. Sweet. Thanks so much, Drew.

Thank you so much. This was fun. Looking forward to catching up in person again at another Cornet event soon. If you liked this episode, find out more about Drew in the show notes at constructor.com slash drewdepressed. If you learned something valuable in this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues.

You can also let me know if you enjoyed our discussion by connecting with me on Twitter at Brittany underscore CT or find me on LinkedIn. You can also email me at Brittany at constructor.com. That's B R I T T A N I E at construct double R.com. Don't forget if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do so at your favorite podcast player. I look forward to continuing the constructor journey with you next week.