Transcript: What is a Digital Vaccine Pass and How Can it Help You?

Hello, hello everyone. Happy Monday. I'm Brittany Campbell-Turner, CEO and founder of Constructor. Now who and what is a constructor? It's not limited to being a constructor or someone who constructs.

It's not limited to real estate, design, construction, workplace or facilities. You join the constructor community if you care about doing the right thing, serving people with the built environment, creating and maintaining, impacting quality spaces for people. We do this by building strong relationships, leading and data utilization and systematizing the way we interact with physical spaces. So join us in our community by going to constructor, that's constructrr.com and follow me on social media. Now, Ryan, our guest is a new member to the constructor community by joining us today in an interview.

And if you are watching, you are in for a treat. You may be watching on Periscope, YouTube, LinkedIn, Twitch and Facebook, but if you wanna participate in the discussion, we are just about to open up a Clubhouse room and I'll be putting that link in the chat shortly. We'll be leaving actually a little bit time at the end so you can ask Ryan any questions live through Clubhouse, a little bit like a call-in radio show. I'll be introducing our guest and saying a few words for my sponsor and get into the interview.

Ryan Rug, she is currently a partner at IBM responsible for America's blockchain team, helping to enhance client solutions and capabilities for building digital ecosystems. She provides strategic guidance for operational and governance considerations, technology roadmaps and services infrastructure to help clients. Ryan also believes in delivering through diversity, diversity in management positions, increasing profitability. And over the course of her career, Ryan has spearheaded several efforts to further diversity and retention across financial services. She has so much on her resume.

Of course, you can look her up on LinkedIn, but I'm so looking forward to this interview. So really quick, a word from our sponsor. Yes, your exceptional space for landlords looking for higher margins on your office spaces, you should strongly considering, consider partnering with yes, your exceptional space to use the yes playbook, an all in one tool for building a successful, flexible workspace brand. This playbook focuses on giving the tools to create not just a physical space or environment, but a stellar experience. You can learn more at hello at yes-spaces.com.

All right, so we're gonna bring our guests up to the stage. Hi, Ryan, welcome to Constructor. Thank you, Brittany, happy to be here. I appreciate that offer. Oh man, so you are, like I mentioned a little bit earlier, you're a blockchain service leader for the Americans at IBM and you've been there for a short period of time, just nine months.

So you've been managing a few key areas, but before we get into that, how are you? I'm great, you know, at changing jobs during a pandemic would have never, I would have never guessed that's what would happen, but it's been absolutely incredible. The team here has been so inclusive and you know, thank goodness for tech, you know, I have the ability to, you know, meet a ton of people on a daily basis. And I actually feel like, you know, in one way, this whole COVID is like democratized, like being able to get meetings with people.

Like everyone has 10 minutes here or there for a quick video chat versus trying to, you know, navigate schedules and locations. So it's been great. So, but yeah, as you mentioned, I am relatively new to IBM, but excited to be here and kind of share the journey that we're on right now. Mm-hmm, well, and the topic that we're gonna be discussing today, for those of you who see the subject line there, we're gonna be talking about the digital health pass, which is really, really relevant these days, given the changing environment that we're seeing with the Delta variant.

And just what people are asking for right now is going to be, it's gonna be really critical for that communication about where you are, what you're doing and what your health status is, gonna be very, very important. So we're gonna dig into that a little bit later. So yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk with you about that digital health pass, but just wanna get a sense high level. What are you up to?

Like, what are those key areas that you do focus on at IBM? Yeah, that's a really good, you know, question. So credentialing overall is a huge focus, digital identity, digital health pass. You know, IBM's been working on this since 2018 and working with governments, commercial, a lot of different entities on that. And, you know, it started out as a learning credential where we're working with the National Clearinghouse for Students, where, you know, we think about, you know, the economy and especially like during COVID and making sure people get back to work.

And how do you have a holistic record, like a skills wallet of your identity and your credentials that you have? So they started that back in 2019. We actually presented it at the White House on that. And that's been live since 2020, working with several universities. So think about it almost as a decentralized LinkedIn.

You know, with LinkedIn, they actually own your data, right? Like we don't have access to it. And like, you mean, there's some permissioning, right? And people have to connect to you, but ultimately people can kind of see your history and not necessarily all your skills are included within that. So I think it's a really great place where we started back in 19.

And now it's evolved to, you know, vaccination tracking. It's evolved to, you know, talk about digital health paths and the work that we're doing there. That talks about, you know, your COVID tests, your vaccine, and, you know, even brought to light now more as you talked about the Delta variant, like, how is travel? Like travel has been difficult if you don't have your negative tests, if you don't have that piece of paper that proves that you're vaccinated, it's caused delays. And, you know, people also don't feel 100% confident traveling yet.

So, you know, we've really evolved from learning to digital health paths and kind of expanding the functionality as well to other states in addition to just New York, as you mentioned. Yeah, so, I mean, what you're touching on is a number of things. It's identity, right? It's tracking like who the person is and verifying that, you know, their identity is accurate and true. And that's backed by, you know, that's backed by blockchain at the moment.

That's backed by blockchain at this point. And it sounds like that was a key area of focus. Also that security standpoint, right? Like that, again, is a huge area of focus. I mean, obviously it's evolved into like what we now are talking about this digital health path.

But are there any other focus areas that kind of are teeter tottering around and kind of have helped for this, not just this solution, but other solutions that you're leading within IBM? Basically, you know, what are those themes, I suppose? Yeah, there's several different, what we call identity instruments out there, if you think about Brittany. Like there's everything from driver's license, insurance card, birth certificates, work school badges. And like, how much information is really out there on us?

And how much control do we have on it? And now being online more than ever before in the past, like, hackers are out there, to your point about security, combing these honeypots for information on our identity. And there's a huge amount of fraud and how do we actually control that? So, there's definitely other areas that we're focused on expanding this to. The key ones that we're alive on are the learning credential as well as a digital health pass within New York State, which is evolving also, like to other states and other companies.

Like, you know, in September, a lot of companies go back to work. How do you do that in a safe manner? And like, I think what's really unique about blockchain technology is the whole security around it, but also like the issue and the verifier. Like, you only share your credential or your health pass or whatever the, you know, identity instrument you want to do with parties that you want. And I think that's what really makes blockchain unique for this.

And it's great for a perfect use case for this technology to really start to scale. And, you know, as we move into Web 3.0 and what that means, and, you know, I'm also extremely passionate about digital assets and like what's going on in that space. And, you know, regulators are opining. And, you know, imagine having a digital wallet for that as well. Right.

And, you know, if we think about all these different, you know, sub-Z checks that people are getting during the pandemic, are they going to the right people? Are they actually being cash? Are they being utilized in the way that the government actually intends? So I see this becoming a much more broad initiative as we kind of move into, as I mentioned, Web 3.0. Okay.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Just to kind of pull the parts and pieces together of what you're working on and how it ultimately ties. Yes, there's this, you know, this tangible solution of like the past itself. But it's looking at it from a perspective of how do you manage your personal data and what connects to you as a person from an identity perspective. Like that certainly is huge.

Awesome. So I'm curious. What led you to the world of blockchain? That's a great story. So back in, you know, so I have been in and around this space a little over five years.

I went down the rabbit hole. I had read an article in The Economist about blockchain and, you know, just kind of became absolutely fascinating at that time. I joke I'm a recovering banker. I spent most of my career on Wall Street. So at that time, I was at Morgan Stanley, but became fixated on this technology and how it could be so impactful.

Like I started my career out in technology at Lehman Brothers and, you know, graduated university and thought at 21 years old, I was going to be able to come in and completely, you know, renovate the whole entire infrastructure of a bank to quickly realize I was doing the look up on spreadsheet. And I was like, I did not go to university for four years for this. So, you know, ended up working my way to the front office. And that's probably, you know, was on the trading floor for quite so many years.

Probably why I'm so fixated on digital assets and cryptos as store of values, as people kind of evolve in this space. So then in 2016, you know, at the time, R3 was a consortium of 65 different banks. And I thought, you know, I'd taken a Python class to see if I wanted to go back to coding and my C++ and Java days and realize that I missed technology a lot more than I actually thought. So had met with the folks over at R3 and thought it was a perfect marriage of my, you know, financial background as well as my technology background.

So made the leap of faith over there in 2016 and then never really look back. That is an awesome story. So, I mean, you having been tied to the kind of financial industry and having worked on Wall Street, like you certainly have a perspective that is, you know, obviously more financially minded, but you see blockchain so much more broadly than just that, because lots of people will tie it primarily to cryptocurrency. But as we know, and lots of people in the constructed community know, because we talk about blockchain a lot, that is definitely not the limitation.

And there's so much more to it. So that's awesome how you've kind of come along in your journey here and recognize to your point, the value of a digital asset. That's really cool. And I think also another great area that we haven't touched upon, but you kind of triggered the thought was, you know, we've done a lot of work in industrials and distribution, right? Supply chain and tracking of that.

You know, we're working with one large distributor right now that has thousands and thousands of suppliers and, you know, palettes go missing and there's massive disputes and how you resolve that and how you actually know where the palette is the whole time during the whole entire journey and, you know, trying to kind of lower, shorten the time, but also create a more, you know, immutable record of these assets across the life. So to your point, like blockchain has definitely evolved since the early days as Satoshi, you know, to where we are now and the different smart contracts to automatic trigger payouts and what we're doing.

And it's exciting to see a lot of this stuff go live now, you know, for folks that have been in it for several years for, you know, we were kind of in that trough of disillusionment for a little bit. But now seeing that things are going live, it's been absolutely wonderful. Yes, yes. Gartner's lifecycle, right? That's that's exactly it.

I mean, we're we're trying to figure out, OK, well, what are these tangible applications today? And and I love your colleague, our industry colleague, Anthony Day. I just wanted to give him a really quick shout out. He he is definitely known for debunking any of the myths out there like blockchain. I love his podcast.

Blockchain doesn't won't save the world, right? Yeah, they were the podcast. Man, for those of you who have not followed him, he's definitely worth a follow on LinkedIn and a good listen to his podcast. But yeah, to your point, there are just so many. There's so many opportunities to to tie to the tangible today.

And, you know, supply chain is is a huge one. And and I think that that's something that a lot of people are seeing the connection to finally of, OK, yeah, I can see how this actually applies to the construction industry because supply chain is 100 percent tied into it. We've been hit by it extremely hard this year, particularly by so many material cost rises, delayed materials, that kind of thing. So I think more now more than ever, we're recognizing how big that piece of the business really, really matters.

So really, really cool stuff that you guys are already working on that and have been for a little while. I'm just going to close my shade real quick. I have having this weird like the sun is like setting in my face. So one second. Hold on.

Absolutely. No problem. So with that, guys here, I'm going to really, really, really quick reset while she's doing that. For those of you who don't know, Ryan Rugg, she's with IBM. She is the blockchain service leader for the Americas at IBM, and we are on Periscope, Twitch, Twitter, LinkedIn and YouTube.

So for those of you who are watching out there and if you would like to join us on Clubhouse, we're going to post the Clubhouse link in a few minutes. I would say maybe in about 20 to 30 minutes, we'll go ahead and put you know, an opportunity out there for you guys to ask questions to Ryan, if you have any questions. And we'll just make sure that, you know, we'll ask her during this interview. I do thank you, Marcus, for posting the Clubhouse link. If you if you want to join on Clubhouse, just look in the chat.

We'll make sure to have you pulled into the room. So Ryan is back with us. So now we're going to dig into the digital past specifically. So March, I believe that's when you guys came out with the digital health pass. And, you know, I think what I'd love to do is just really dig into, like, what the features are, particularly if you could just break that down for us.

Like, what is it? What is it? What does it help us do? And then how are how are companies using it? How are individuals using it?

So New York State really want to stimulate the economy again, like bring confidence for people to start returning to concerts and restaurants and travel and all that. So, you know, back, as you said, in March, we launched the first phase of it. And the first event that we did, it was at the Barclay Center for people to be able to come to an event and know that everyone in there with confidence had received a negative covid test within, you know, 24 hours, as well as being vaccinated.

So similar to when you travel, Brittany, it's like it creates in your wallet, you get a, you know, a QR code, basically how you do for a plane ride. And it's your your wallet, your digital health pass where you scan it. And it shows that, you know, Ryan Rugg was vaccinated on X date, received negative covid tests and the history of it. And the wonderful thing about this is you only share it with people you want to share it with. Right.

So it's not someone else owning your data, owning your vaccination records. It's you as an individual. And that's truly what makes this this solutions different than other ones out there. Where you can only share it with, you know, parties that you want to. So this in this case, New York State was the issuer of the credential.

And then, you know, you were the holder of your digital wallet and then you could bring it to different verifiers. So, you know, we've now gone to Excelsior Pass Plus, which is really exciting that we rolled out last week. The team did an actually incredible job. And now airlines are going to be starting to accept it in broader ecosystems, because really, you know, it's critical to have this digital identity. Like, why do we still carry around plastic things for driver's license?

Why do we carry, you know, so many different paper versions of our identity versus having that and be able to share it with build a controller on data and only share it like there's so much more data out there on us than ever before. And you really want to be able to control who sees it when they see it. And like, that's why I think blockchain technology is uniquely designed from a security standpoint, immutability, but also, you know, a security standpoint. I mean, going back to like only sharing it with people you want to share it with.

So you mentioned verifiers. You mentioned the state of New York, right? The state of New York is is rolling out the Excelsior. This is this is kind of the phase two of this pass. And then what you're able to do is not only show that you're vaccinated or if you have had a positive or negative covid test ultimately, and you can determine who and who you're going to show it to and only to them by using sort of the the platform on your phone.

And now so you mentioned the verifiers. Now, who are the verifiers? Well, in the case of New York, it's really, you know, restaurants, music venues, theaters, air rolling out to airline industries. You know, that's who you're the holder. So the issuer would be New York.

You know, I'm the holder of my digital wallet, my digital identity. And then the verifiers who you actually choose to be able to verify who you are, right, to prove that you're the customer, to prove that, you know, in fact, like, you know, that this is a good credential. So it's where you want to show to get into like a restaurant, could be a great example, or, you know, an airline could be it or a cruise line would verify, but you're the holder of that identity.

But they're the one that's actually using the credential, the qualification to let you into the restaurant venue or whatever the case is. Sure. OK. Yeah, that makes sense. All right.

So that being said. You know, I work in I work in workplace like we we do a lot of workplace build outs. And so as we're thinking through like what return to office looks like soft opening, full reopening, all the different phases of what that looks like. And everybody's thinking about what that looks like right now. You know, what what do you think are the possibilities?

Obviously, the state of New York is an issue where, you know, they they have so many opportunities now to just make it available for businesses. But how do you see this translating into the workplace environment as an example? That's great. And like talking about like within construction and like all the different insurance that you have to have and different credentials to be able to do to access and start performing the work and, you know, how much time and effort goes into that to proving Ryan Rugg has all the right qualification, has the right, you know, insurance policy, has all that.

So like within your space, I really see that being able to make an impact in like trucking license and all the different kind of license that go around it to be able to actually do the work. So I think it's really critical. And, you know, from a just an employer standpoint, as they're bringing people back to work and different employers have different kind of takes on, you know, mandating some or mandating vaccinations, some aren't, you know, I'm not here to opine what's right or what's wrong in that.

But if we could be here for hours, if I know, but if you are mandating it like and that person lost their paper vaccination card and how are they actually going to do it? You know, we've got APIs and data feeds pulling out of this data from the lab corps and different ones with this with this information on it. So like, could there be fraud in vaccinations? Like, could you show somebody else's? Could you forge it potentially?

Right. I mean, it's a piece of paper. Right. So there's definitely where this is not relying on the piece of paper. We're actually pulling it directly from the sites that have done the vaccinations in the hospitals, the lab corps and other areas to prove that you're vaccinated.

So there's also like, again, it's I'm not here to opine if you should or you shouldn't. But if you are, it makes it a lot more easy and transparent. And like you could also, you know, if your workers were exposed to someone in the office that had covid and they got the negative test and then they are you going to rely on an email and it's like making sure that everyone checks exactly the right numbers to make sure that the test was done in 24 hours.

And so it really depends on each kind of employer and what they're mandating. But I can see this bringing back people a lot easier and faster and making it more efficient. And we already talked a bit about security. But one big question I have is, you know, I bet there's a concern as to how we're how our companies want to bring different solutions like this from a cost perspective. So could you be would you be able to speak to that?

From a call from an implementation. I mean, it really depends on the size of the organization. But, you know, this new from a timing perspective, this new Excel CR plus we turned around in three weeks. So from a timing perspective, it can be really efficient because it's it's already built out. Right.

Like we have the asset already built out and done. And I think that's what's really important. And it depends on the functionality that the entity wants. Right. And how much if they just want a basic one, it's not going to be a high cost because the assets already built out.

But again, there are systems that they currently have and the requirements and how many credentials are they going to want in the actual platform they have? And, you know, they actually ultimately end up being the issuer of it themselves. So it's like depends like what their level of expertise and how much training we have to do because we're an enabler, like we're just a technology provider. So it's each entity kind of depends on its own. But I will say from a timing perspective, it's really short now, which I think, you know, as we mentioned, IBM has been on this journey since 2018.

So, you know, it's been a lot of learning and building along this journey. So I'm excited to see what other kind of industries we start approaching into as well as, you know, other credentials, identity assets people are interested in. Yeah, yeah, that's really good. So, I mean, as far as New York rolling it out, I mean, did they have any hurdles rolling it out initially and then kind of this second phase? You know, how might have those how might have those hurdles been addressed?

Just curious as to kind of, you know, the process. Well, I would say that New York was really dedicated to this from day one. Right. They, you know, bringing people back to the city. I mean, that's a huge revenue driver for the city, for the state is tourism.

Right. So they were extremely focused, all hands on deck to get this done. And the original one took, you know, roughly a month and a half, two months. So it wasn't even that long. And like that we had dedication from the top down.

So I think that is one thing that is critical, making sure that all the right parties are at the table, that there's no, you know, back and forth. Should we do it? Should we not do it? They were dedicated. So I would say that's something that when you're going on this journey, make sure you have all the right constituents, all the right parties at the table to do this, because it can move pretty fast.

So that's one of the big things I would say, just making sure the key stakeholders are there from the get go. Yeah. Well, and I would say as we're thinking about our return to office strategies, it's a similar thing. It's getting all the right decision makers to the table and getting everybody really just aligned on what the approach is going to be. So it's very, it's very similar.

You know, oftentimes we're asking ourselves, like, okay, what's that interconnection between IT, HR, our workplace department, who's actually going to be thinking about how these spaces connect? But this is, to your point, kind of that other piece that people would need to really be thinking about how is this being tracked and how are you going to put the ownership of your health data in the person's hands, but also, you know, make it so that it's available to the right people at the right time in order for, you know, really that comfort level for the verifiers, the employee, the employers, if you will, to have when they're considering, okay, well, how are we going to bring people back, you know, whether they're testing negative or making sure that they're verifying that vaccination?

So very, very interesting stuff. Yeah. I mean, back to that decision maker point you're making, it's all about change management and setting expectations and making sure people know, like, okay, this is how you engage. This is how you use the product. This is, you know, those kind of things.

And this is what you'll expect as far as how your data will be used. So, I mean, that kind of thing, if people aren't aware of, you know, blockchain and the benefits of it initially, you know, I bet there are people that are skeptical. Like, how would you address some of those kind of myths, if you will, because there's I'm sure I'm sure you guys are getting a lot of questions and concerns about it. Now a ton. And like, you know, and I think that, you know, early days blockchain, it was definitely overhyped that it could solve everything.

It solved world poverty. It can solve this. It can solve that where people almost stop believing in the tech. But if you go back to kind of, you know, blockchain technology has been around since like the 1990s originally, you know, a group of researcher to basically timestamp and documentations and like being able to do that to then, you know, the coal rise of the digital assets in the space there to now where we are and like the security of the wallet, right, like the cryptographic keys and like being able to immutable record, like really going back to the core tenements of what this technology is, is key and understanding that because there are a lot of myths out there about what it can and can't do.

But I think that as we are in this digital first environment, having a digital form of your identity and being able to share it with only parties you want is really key. You know, it's just so much data out there on us being collected on a daily basis and who actually has access to it, if there's hacks and that and, you know, you not be able to share it with parties you want to share it with, I think is key. So I think that going back to the fundamentals of this technology and really what it was built for and what it's good at is key.

And I think that we're starting to see that by the adoption that we're seeing across the different entities and states that are starting to use it. Yeah, yeah. So that being said, you know, there are there are businesses, particularly in New York, at least from what I've seen in the news over the past week, or gyms, restaurants, at least those two, I know that there are businesses outside of that that are really looking at having having some sort of proof that you've either been vaccine or you have a negative result on a test.

Like, what do you foresee happening next? Because of this Excelsior pass, like, do you do you see that it's going to just have an uptick in in businesses? And of course, this is just your own opinion. You don't have to speak to like what you actually might know what's happening, of course. But just curious as to your thoughts.

Well, the goal is to restore confidence, right? And, you know, being a fellow New Yorker, I can tell you that the pandemic hit the city really hard. Everything was closed down. Like in our apartment building, like we basically couldn't leave the confines of our four walls, right? They closed down our gym.

They closed down the playroom. They closed down playgrounds. They closed down restaurants. You really couldn't leave. So a lot of New Yorkers went through a lot of, you know, trauma due to that.

Like, they just didn't feel comfortable leaving their apartment for quite some time. So really what I'm hoping that this does is, you know, reinstills that confidence and allows them to feel comfortable going into different venues and restaurants and knowing that they're with parties that are negative and that there's not, you know, the super spreader kind of events that are going on and, you know, ultimately allow travel again. You know, I mean, with this Delta variant and the way that the numbers are upticking, like, who knows what's going to happen next?

And like, you know, it's the city was hit extremely hard as well as other states and businesses. It's kind of been really tough. But like, how do you get people back out, you know, living their lives and doing that? So I'm hoping that, you know, kind of phase one, this reinstills confidence within different states and entities. But ultimately, like it expands into driver's license and fishing and parks.

And, you know, there's just so many different credentials out there that should be digitized. That shouldn't be a paper form of it. So I'm hoping that we continue on the journey to kind of expand it for all of our clients, as well as other industries that I'm sure I haven't even thought about or addressed yet. You know, like the learning credential network that we started out with, like I see a really great with potentially with like tie into covid, like the medical workers, right? Being able to onboard people in a faster, more efficient way than saying that, you know, Ryan Rugg got our medical degree X, it was in good standing.

And like, you know, that takes 60 to 90 days right now. And like when we having these spikes and these different variants that are going on, like, how do we bring people to the front lines faster? So I would love to kind of see it expand into the medical industry as well with like the credentials for doctors and also with telemed now that's getting so big and making sure that people are getting the care they need to. Because so many people haven't been able to because of the high rates within certain areas.

And I still remember when in New York, when they brought in the ships for kind of backup health care, they did pop up tents in Central Park. It was it was a crazy experience and, you know, making sure that people can get the care they need when they need it, I think is crucial. Yeah, I mean, you you kind of went there from a number of different directions. And I appreciate that because you're not only thinking about the expanse of how this how something like this, like an identity pass can help people in different industries, but you're also thinking about the demand of what is really needed in order to help people get the care that they need.

But also so that we can really get back to get back to some sense of normalcy, right, so that people feel like they can live their lives in a way that is fulfilling again. And they feel like they're not on edge all the time anymore, especially with a highly populated area like New York City. I mean, you I mean, we were living in a condo in Chicago about two years ago. And, you know, you you pop out of your condo and you're right there, you know, right right there with the traffic, with everybody else, you're pressing the same buttons on the elevator.

You know, you're you're walking down the street. You're going to be opening the same door handle as as someone else just going into the grocery store. It's just heavily populated. And that's just how you live your life. Like you this a requirement for you to be around a ton of people.

It's a little bit different from suburban life for those who are not really needing to kind of go out and about like, you know, obviously you can order in food and that. But to your point, that traumatic effect of like being closed down in one space all the time, like we can go down the rabbit hole of mental impacts. Like I can only imagine just wanting to get back to a level of normalcy to breathe again. And New Yorkers are social people like they really are the food, the culture, the arts.

They want to be out and about like, you know, you pay top dollar to live in these tiny little apartments because you love the city you live in. And like a true story, I had one of my neighbors like come in my apartment after we had been gone for a period of time and asked to open all the windows, a sliding glass door when she walked in and then was in the apartment for five minutes and said, this is the closest I've been to a person in eight months.

I'm having a little bit of a panic attack. I have to go like it is like it is definitely taking an effect on a lot of people. So any more any bit of confidence we can help with bringing these people back to a level of comfort, to know that they're safe, to know that everyone in the venue has received negative hosts, to know that they're vaccinated or not, whatever I think is really important. And I think, you know, I think the work that New York's done is absolutely incredible, like to give these New Yorkers the confidence back to start traveling and live their lives because, you know, mental health is no joke.

And it's like these people that have been locked in their apartments for quite some time, you know, you want them to start feeling some normalcy again. Yeah, yeah, it's real. You know, on the flip side, if if there's a health concern and you can't get the vaccine, it's demonstrating that, OK, yep, I've taken my test in order to get into this place of business that requires it if I need to enter into it. And I think I think that alternative that's there in the past is really critical for those who maybe have a health concern that where it's not recommended for a vaccine to actually take place, right?

Like everybody doesn't know every single situation, but I hear of them all the time. Right. So it's I think I think that balance and understanding like, OK, this is the kind of data that you can track and monitor in order for you to enter into society in the way that you need to navigate through it. I think that's really, really, really critical as well. It's important.

We've also done some work on tracking vaccinations, like where they kept at the proper temperature, because there's all these like rumors coming out now. It's like, oh, people that didn't receive their vaccination, not in a hospital, it wasn't stored properly. That's why they're getting covid. And if that's true or not, I have no idea, because there's not enough stats out there on that to prove it either way. But tracking and tracing the actual vaccine from the manufacturer to the end user and knowing and then working with big data analytics on that to kind of study the behavior like what is, you know, how long does the vaccination actually last?

Is it there a difference between the different manufacturers between the cold storage, between the distribution once they opened kind of the package? So I think it's really interesting work that we're doing there, too, and like more to come, because I can see that and kind of being a way of like the future also. Yeah, I mean, that goes back to the supply chain we were just talking about. Right. Like, how are you tracking what the most important things about making sure that ultimately it's administered well and is going to be effective?

And it's just making sure all those touch points happen, happen properly all the way through, which is that's really cool. Huh. OK. We touched on workplace a bit already. And.

You know, I just I want to open it up for those who have questions. I see a couple of people out there. If there's anybody who has questions for Ryan, please, please place that in the chat. We'd be happy to to ask Ryan those questions. We're talking particularly about the digital health pass that IBM has rolled out and New York has adopted as the Excelsior pass.

And and they're, you know, really figuring out ways to make sure people have the ability to hold their their data about their health, whether they're vaccinated or they're testing negatively and able to show that to verify verifiers, places of businesses, places of business that are asking for verification of of the data and only to those businesses and organizations that they want to show it to. So that's what we're talking about today. We've talked a little bit about Ryan's journey to block Jane and what she's doing at IBM.

But if you have any specific questions about this health pass, she is a great resource and now is your time. So don't miss it. And, you know, Ryan, is there anything that you and I didn't touch on that you feel is really important for us to to cover, given, you know, the constructor audience, that it's, you know, workplace, that it's facilities management, that it's construction, architecture, all of those components. Is there anything that you think that would be valuable for the audience? So we thought we touched on digital identity, which I think is great.

You know, we touched a little bit on supply track and trace, which I think, you know, your audience is definitely really interested in that, especially ones that have multiple suppliers and dispute resolutions and being able to do that in a more efficient way. And, you know, we've rolled it out to a couple of people in the construction space around that also, you know, and then, you know, we didn't really talk touch and deal assets, but we really didn't talk about payments a lot. But, you know, what does that mean and how does that become more efficient as we move?

You know, you have several central banks focusing on central bank digital currency. You have stable coins out there. You have cryptos. What's the difference in them all? Like, you know, you have now like online payment providers like PayPal accepting crypto like what is the evolution of payments and like what does it look like in the future?

I think would be really kind of interesting for, you know, to talk a little bit about or at least for your listeners to kind of understand how the landscape is changing. And I think the big reason it's changing is you're starting to see regulators opine on this. You know, everyone from the OCC saying that banks can be, you know, host nodes to your scene, State of Wyoming opening charters to, you know, for digital banks. So I think it's going to be impactful. I mean, I'm sure there's massive payment gaps, dispute resolutions, procurement, all that that, you know, within your industry, they go through.

And how do you make that more efficient? So I think those are kind of the key three areas that I think are really interesting to your listeners. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we talked about identity already. There's so much credentialing required.

There's so many things related to to your point quality of materials coming on to site and just kind of verifying that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so many, so many areas. I mean, payment is is one key thing that, yeah, many people are working on right now. And I think there's there's so much opportunity for gaining efficiencies in in this industry at large.

There's I think there's a lot of opportunity to create better data management in general and having the right data at the right time. That's why we have these conversations about Black Jada on the Constructor podcast, too. So that's great. I'm glad you're seeing it, too. And that's awesome.

So I'm not seeing any questions coming through here. And that's OK. I have a question. Marcus has a question. OK, Marcus has a question for us.

So I used to work at a blockchain startup that was focused on, I would say, mainly verify. You broke up. I don't know if it's on my side. That was on my side. Apologies.

Marcus, can you restate the question? OK, so I was a part of a blockchain startup that was focused on verifiable credentials. And so I find the your aspects of speaking about that extremely interesting. But as we move into supply chain and IoT and linking that together with payment, with programmable money for the for how do you see what within that space, what do you think there's going to be multiple dispute resolution layers? And how are we going to get people in these different organizations to be able to sit down together and realize that we can work together in order to solve these problems?

Because federated models are extremely difficult to implement. Yeah, coming from a consortium in my prior role at R3, definitely you hit on the nail on the head. Like getting the parties together is by far the hardest part, you know, because they they're not they're not used to that kind of collaboration model. It's more of a compete model. So getting to sit down and discuss the standards and the protocols and the ways they're going to implement it has definitely been one of the biggest challenges like by far.

Like, you know, but they're, you know, within the digital credentialing, like there there are standards that are starting to emerge where like VCI for which we're using now and Excel, Sarah Paus and like you're starting to see these standards where like mind people are coming together in technology side as well as on the business side to start to kind of like, you know, scale this and like, you know, your point on the payment side, that's basically what R3 was born out of. Right. It was a bunch of different banks trying to figure out how they could come together to look at, you know, cross border payments and all that and how they were going to kind of settle for that.

And, you know, you're you're starting to see, you know, kind of that emerge again also with the central banks like they're starting to collaborate as well. You know, BIS, the Bank of International Settlements did a great paper on something like 80 or 85 percent of all central banks are either, you know, investing, have a pilot running within this like digital dollar digital fiat area. So you're starting to see more collaboration versus competition, which I think is great. But Marcus, to your point, it's going to be a challenge.

And, you know, because people think like that's their secret sauce, their operations, which, you know, ultimately, that's not what's going to take your revenue to like, you know, two, three acts at the end of the day. But there's definitely been that compete versus cooperate kind of push pull that we've seen in the marketplace. And certain industries struggle more than others. You know, it's just certain ones collaborate more and versus others. For those, I have a follow up question to that.

For those industries that are collaborating a little bit more than others, how are they collaborating and what is the I guess what is the incentive for them to collaborate and how can these other industries that are less collaborative, how can they look at them as a resource to to further their efforts? Yeah, the ones that I've seen, you know, collaborating best in regards and like what is like the first mover advantage, right, is what kind of the question is, like, what do you get by, you know, contributing all this IP and time and resources and and so forth.

And it's different in different industries. You know, like, you know, when I was at R3 with the banks, some of like the early projects that they were collaborating on, we put, you know, project frameworks together where everything from they got lower fees if they were, you know, you know, donating more IP to sometimes they got like, you know, larger ownership on it, which I actually discourage that because that slowed adoption in certain ones, like if the early adopters owned larger proportions of the network, then some of the smaller entities felt like they'd always be trumped, right.

And they never actually have like a truly, you know, say in the structure of the application. So I think it's really important to kind of set expectations, you know, and also the for profit profit model has also been interesting where people seem to want trust more than non for profit model where like no one's actually making money off of this. It's just making the industry more efficient and, you know, overall and better for, you know, all versus some. So there's different models that you can kind of go through.

And like, you know, we've actually developed like different worksheets on like what's important and like to you and what's not from a governance, from a standard standpoint. And sometimes it's just, you know, standards, right, which are key to all of these different applications. And, you know, who's developing the standards, who's owning them, how you come together, how you build out that network framework, the governance around it, all that. So there's a lot of different models that I've seen. I said that the ones that I've kind of highlighted that work the best, you know, are where not one person owns a network because then it discourages or a larger percentage, I should say, because that discourages people from coming on.

They truly want like the idea and going back to the core characteristics of block chain, like decentralized, where, you know, no third party owns it, controls it, where, you know, all parties can kind of collaborate on it. So I think that's key when you're thinking about bringing these different parties together and setting that kind of framework up early on. So everyone knows the roles and responsibilities and like what the end game is. But, you know, being a first mover, I mean, from a adoption standpoint and being able to drive those efficiency and lower expense ratios, you know, it's going to speak to your bottom line ultimately.

Thank you, Marcus, for the question. Yeah. Ryan, thanks for that. That that that answer, I think it puts things into perspective as far as how it how hard it is to kind of put things into. To live adoption, if you will, when you're trying to get people to collaborate and do a little bit of what do you what do you want to call it?

Co petition, cooperating together in order to compete. But I think that's how we're going to see kind of the next phase come through for a number of industries, obviously the financial industry. We can we can look to the models that are established already on moving us forward. But I think other industries will absolutely need to come together and figure out, OK, well, who are the who are the right people to bring together, especially from a regulatory standpoint, making sure that you're you're kind of checking all those boxes.

Really good stuff. And the way it's evolved, like that I've saw early days, you know, was working groups. But like the one thing that I will discourage about a working group don't have a working group for the sake of a working group, actually have a clear timeline with deadlines and like start testing and experimenting. Let's just not meet on a weekly, monthly, whatever the kind of cadence is to talk about these issues, you know, talk about it. We're going to build it.

You know, and it's like I tell my kids, it's OK to fail. Right. You know, you have to recognize. But being able to learn from your experience and pivot, you know, is kind of one of the most meaningful things that I've taken away from being in this space. It's like, you know, two steps forward, one step back is actually success.

Right. And it's like, you know, each time you get better at it until, you know, you're going to agree all the create this. But, you know, working groups are great, but don't have the sake of just having them bringing parties together like minded people. Make sure you have a deliverable to make sure you actually have an output that you're going to do. And if it's, you know, a pilot, an MVP, whatever that you share with the other parties at the part of the working group, so it's a truly a learning experience, I think is key.

But make sure you have some sort of deliverable, not just a working group for the sake of it. Yeah, that I mean, that's key. Right. Like you want to make sure you're making progress and not just talking about it. I mean, yeah, that wonderful advice.

Well, Ryan, I want to thank you so much for for participating in this interview. Can can how can people get in touch with you or learn more about what you're up to so they can they can digest it some more and more deeply. Absolutely. You know, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm on there quite frequently posting new updates about what's going on kind of in this space.

So if you just want to hear more, learn more, I write blogs, white papers, all that. So ton of it's on LinkedIn. And then, you know, always happy to have a conversation again with your with your, you know, your kind of group, Brittany, whatever it helps people kind of. It's really important for me that education that we're on a marathon, not a sprint. So I think it's important to work together during this time.

Excellent. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right. I appreciate the time.

Thank you. Thanks. So now another word from our sponsor. We want to thank you. Yes, your exceptional space for sponsoring today's show.

For more information about your exceptional space, download their white paper by clicking the get started button at yes. Spaces.com. Last but not least, again, I am Brittany Campbell Turner, CEO and founder of Constructor. Follow me on social media at Brittany C.T. And if you want to participate in our discussions during the week, join us on Clubhouse by going to Brittany dot club.

You can join the Property Technology Club or the Smart City Community clubs. If you'd like to set notifications for these these events, you can in order for you to participate them. You can also look us up on Constructor dot com to learn more about us. So with that, everyone, I hope you enjoyed the interview today with Ryan. Everyone have a wonderful evening and catch you next time.