Transcript: The Value Beyond Cost Savings for Corporate Real Estate

One of the most compelling benefits, think about the health and wellness benefits, is that the average corporation today spends about $700 per person per year on wellness programs, let alone the 10,000 per person they spend on healthcare. And so now for a one-time investment of approximately $400 per person in the well-building standard or health and wellness types of activities, you can get all of these benefits, a lot of them very passive benefits. And so from a company's perspective, it's a really powerful way to deal with health and wellness.

And so we're at a really interesting time where the technology and the science, incredible demand by employers and employees for this health and wellness, not just that sustainability broadly, that we can actually implement things that are both cost-effective and powerful value creators. Hello and welcome to the Constructor Podcast, the best way to build it, episode number 97. I'm your host, Brittany Campbell Turner. This podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. We talk about fostering trusting relationships, help you to understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule, and most importantly, exceed your end users desires.

In last week's episode, we spoke with Brian Berthold, Managing Director of Workplace Strategy and Change Management at Cushman and Wakefield. We talk about holistic approaches to workplace strategy, measuring experience per square foot and some examples of clients he's worked with and how they've driven the decisions that they make by experience per square foot and made some monumental changes to how happy their employee base is. Lastly, we discuss how this impacts ROI in the long run. If you haven't listened to this episode yet, check it out at constructor.com slash EP 96.

Today we're speaking with Scott Moldaven, Corporate Real Estate President of the Moldaven Company. We discuss the intersection of financial modeling for your deep retrofit and healthy real estate investments. Companies are under investing in energy efficiency and sustainability, hurting their profits and competitive position. Scott and I talk about how healthy building investments can create financial benefits and how they can actually be calculated as part of a company's normal investment due diligence, simply using traditional financial analysis techniques. Scott and I also discuss how to improve real estate decisions in order to achieve greater profits, investment returns and operating efficiency.

We talk about deep energy retrofits and the value beyond cost savings. And last but not least, the framework of the Well-Building Institute Standard, which he participated in developing. So with that, let's get into the interview. We are interviewing Scott Moldaven, Senior Advisor of Delos, which founded the Well-Building Standard and President of the Moldaven Company. Companies are under investing in energy efficiency and sustainability, hurting their profits and competitive position.

Healthy building investments create financial benefits. Such benefits can be calculated and presented as part of a company's normal investment due diligence, using traditional financial analysis techniques, he says. Scott helps to improve real estate decisions to achieve greater profits, investment returns and operating efficiency. He is dedicated to integrity, integrating sustainability into real estate investment decisions. So Scott, welcome to the Constructor Podcast.

Well, thank you. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on today. Let's first talk about deep energy retrofits. How would you define a deep energy retrofit and how is that different from conventional retrofits? So a deep energy retrofit is really just a project or that achieves superior energy savings, up to 50% or more for actually for an existing property versus traditional projects, which have saved maybe 15 to 20%.

That additional savings and actually the value that's created enables deeper sustainability investments. Could you share with us how deep retrofits can achieve that superior energy cost savings and exactly just kind of give us a high level as to how that takes place? Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. If you say 50%, you have some lower energy cost savings. How that's achieved, additionally, when you do an analysis of energy features that you might implement, there might be things you could do to the windows or an HVAC upgrade or better technology or even more innovation in a variety of areas, but you often can't do that because it costs too much.

By looking more carefully at the value, it enables you to make some investments in things where short-term energy cost savings alone would not justify the savings. Who typically benefits from this approach? So the basic thesis of my work, and you didn't talk a lot about it in my background, but I'm basically a real estate guy. I co-founded a $3 billion investment company. I ran real estate consulting at Deloitte for many years, and I've done a lot of stuff in real estate.

And when I got involved in sustainability about 12 years ago, I saw that there was almost no financial analysis and all the information and the way that it was presented didn't actually speak to the actual corporations or investment managers or others who had to make the decisions. So the work I'm doing actually is about really being that translator between the financial side of the decision-makers. So the kinds of people that would benefit then from the kind of work I do is the corporations. That would be the leaders, the executives, the facility managers, the due diligence people in corporate finance.

For the owners of properties or the investors in properties, it would also help the asset managers, the property managers, and anybody involved in the due diligence of the property. And consequently, if you're an architect, an engineer, a consultant, or an other sustainability consultant that is trying to work with either corporations or investors on their properties, the work that we'll talk about more today provides you the methods and the data to actually provide more effective and supportable recommendations, which helps sustainability and energy managers who are trying to work within their companies to support more of these things.

Thanks for sharing a little bit more about your background and a little bit more of the focus on just helping owners make better decisions. There are a couple of things mitigated by approaching retrofits this way. Could you share with us a few of the risks that are mitigated? Yes, I'm gonna back up a bit and talk about this issue of risk. If you think about it, anybody that provides capital or makes an investment has to think about risk.

I often, when I'm talking to people, I ask them, what's better, a 5% return or a 15% return? And obviously, it depends on the risks. If I can buy a Google Lease building, I might buy that for a 3% return, but if it's a building that has a lot of market risk, if it has a lot of construction or retrofit risk, then that might be a much higher rate of return. So every financial decision, what sustainability or energy retrofits are, requires an assessment of risk. And so the first thing, if you're an architect or an engineer or a consultant, if you think about all the things that we do as people in this industry, to make sure that the forecast of savings and costs and everything are as good as possible, we get the best people, we vet our people, we do all kinds of things to actually reduce the risk

of our forecast being wrong. The problem is, is that much of that is not presented and organized effectively and presented to decision makers, which is standard due diligence. So there's a lot of things that you can do. And also there's specialized green building due diligence through green leases and some kinds of transaction things and other things. There's a lot of stuff, and we'll talk about some of my publications.

It's detailed in there about what you can do. But most importantly, so think about yourself as a, let's say you're an investor of an office building. And when you make that investment, you invest because you think you can get a return. If I do this, I can get a 10% return, but I don't know for sure. There's certain risks, and I think that they're normal.

So think about sustainability or a deep retrofit. It actually provides all these, what I call positive risks. There's the potential, if I can really attract the tenants, or if I'm a corporation, if I can really make my workers more productive or reduce health costs or make recruiting and retention easier. If I can actually do those things, then the value proposition and the return on investment goes into the hundreds of percents. And so what you need to do, and it's a standard part of due diligence, is you not only have to talk about the bad things that can happen, but you have to talk about the good things that are gonna happen.

And you have to provide enough data and support to benefit those. But there's all kinds of risks. If I'm a corporation and I invest in energy retrofits and our sustainability, then I am getting significant benefits due to my reputation or brand risks, talent shortages and staff retention, pricing pressures. There's all these kinds of things that are benefiting. So the trick in all of this is not just to be able to talk about it or do a list, but to actually integrate it into the decision-making and the way that you present it and the way that you calculate it in a way that people can monetize these benefits.

I like the fact that you said they can monetize the benefits. I've seen reports that mention that companies with health safety and environmental approaches, they outperform in the S&P 500 by 3% to 5%. So I think that really drives the point home. And I know you have specific calculations that share the financial benefits of approaching things this way with a sustainability mindset. But I just wanted to dig in a little bit more about what some of the key drivers are to adopting and investing into sustainability.

I know you mentioned staff retention, making sure to have talent and sort of talking about it from the risk perspective, but on the benefit side, I mean, there's so many things that really can be improved as a result of focusing on the business at large versus say facility management, director's perspective, for instance, if they know they need to upgrade for technology's sake. There's so many things that need to be taken into account if it's human resources and how the business is approaching just their talent and the development of their personnel.

How are they serving their clients? What does that look like? So if you can dig into what some of the benefits are on that level. Absolutely, and I'll get into that, but to just kind of clarify the way that you have to think about this, the great thing now is there's lots of this, like you just listed some of all these kinds of benefits. The trick is, well, how do I actually quantify it and what do I need to do to make it both property and or company specific?

Because you have studies like the one you mentioned about the three to 5% increase, kind of a general study of whole bunches of things, but the question is, well, how do I apply that to my company? And that's actually what due diligence people are, so I'll talk about how we do that. So when talking about the benefits of an energy retrofit or well, I'm just gonna use the term sustainability. I mean, I wrote a book seven years ago called Value Beyond Cost Savings, and that's where I came up with my ideas around deep retrofits, and the determination was that if you're gonna go deep and actually do real energy savings, what we need for some of our societal challenges, then you have to integrate health and wellness into the equation.

That's what I'm doing. So when you think about the benefits, you have to separate corporations from investors, because obviously a corporation that is an owner and a user, if you have employees that are more productive or employees that have better health, and you can recruit them, you get those benefits directly. So the way that you actually have to calculate it and think about those benefits is different. If you're an investor, I can only benefit if the companies appreciate what I'm doing in my building and will pay higher rents or increase the occupancy in my building, will have better leasing advantages and sales prices.

So it's kind of a secondary analysis. So the benefit for a corporation is very direct. The idea of like, say, employee health and productivity, I mean, productivity, just investing in your employees right there. The return on investment, I don't know what the stats are, but that in itself, it's one of the great benefits, and I would love to hear more about it. One of the most compelling benefits when you think about the health and wellness benefits is that the average corporation today spends about $700 per person per year on wellness programs, let alone the 10,000 per person they spend on healthcare.

And so now for a one-time investment of approximately $400 per person in the well-building standard or those health and wellness types of activities, you can get all of these benefits, a lot of them very passive benefits. And so from a company's perspective, it's a really powerful way to deal with health and wellness. So when you look at employee health, you have absenteeism. There's many studies that show absenteeism benefits of 10 to 40% by doing investments in health and wellness and other sustainability things. There's six or seven really great studies that lay those out.

Health costs are more difficult, and in my financial models, I'm careful about those because if you're a corporation, if I can reduce the health costs of all my employees, I might be able to negotiate reductions in my health costs if I have a separate provider. Possibility there, but you have to be a little bit careful. You also have reductions in litigation if you don't deal with smoking and other kinds of issues. But the real juice when it comes to occupants, by far, is with recruiting and retention in worker productivity.

And so let's just talk about that a little bit. I have done a publication, which you can pick up on my website and maybe we'll make that more available earlier. This is a publication called Financial Support for Sustainability and Well-Building Standard Decisions. And so what I essentially do is for each of the key variables, like one of the key things you need to calculate the benefit of worker productivity, I mean, you have to know the salaries of your workers, but you also know, have to make an assumption about a productivity increase.

And in my financial model, if you have a productivity increase of 0.5%, you have returns on investments of 300%. If you actually get a 2.5% increase in productivity, an 800% internal rate of return based on the cost for the investment. So I just list, under indoor air quality, there's a whole slew of studies, which on average the Lawrence Livermore Labs worker indoor air quality group has said that they believe as much as a 10% increase in productivity based on a whole slew of indoor air quality things.

A study that was done by Harvard and Syracuse recently, where they have shown a cognitive performance in white collar workers to improve 60 to 100% in spaces with improved ventilation, carbon dioxide levels and lower volatile organic compounds. I mean, there's huge benefits. Lighting studies showing on average by doing daylighting in a better way, you can have productivity gains of 5.5%. The comfort, a 4% drop in performance if temperatures are too cold, 6% if it's too warm. And you can just, you can go on.

So what you can do is under the well-building standards, you have air quality, you have lighting, you have things that you can do. There's 102 features that you can actually do. You have comfort things that you can do, fitness things that you can do, water and nutrition and then mind things. And so what I've done in this report is I've actually laid out with extreme footnoting, all of the studies. And so what you get is you get literally about 50 really good studies on productivity in other buildings and other situations.

And then if I can attribute only 0.5% productivity increase, I end up having rates of return over 300%. And so I recommend doing sensitivity analysis. And I mean, if you have an office building or an apartment or this kind of thing, I obviously wanna take the studies that are most applicable to mine and you can be very, very conservative. But it's important to have actual numbers and say I'm using my assumption as let's say a 1% productivity increase and here's why. So say for instance, I'm a corporation, I'm already planning on doing retrofits.

And we want to figure out the best way to invest into a few particular things. There's the analysis you mentioned. How do you pick apart the things to approach and implement when you're assessing sort of all the benefits, right? So that you can get the best return on investment. Like what would you recommend as far as the steps in the process to approach this the best way possible?

That's a really good point. So assume we're talking about an overall sustainability analysis that would include energy efficiency and water and indoor air quality. So if you're doing that kind of broad thing. So what's really important in the starting point of our work is that I have to understand how sustainability in a building can actually create value. What is it about it that creates value?

It creates value. So again, if I'm a corporation, it creates value through my employees. It starts with understanding that value is created. And obviously I would want to focus on things that have the highest increase in value. I mean, we know from 2016, an amazing study done at Texas A&M, they showed that call center.

Imagine you have two similar, almost identical call centers. In one they put adjustable desks, and the other one they didn't. And after six months, the ones with adjustable desks were 46% more productive. And that's based on the number of calls made. That's a no brainer.

I ought to be getting adjustable desks. So what you need to do is you need to understand what kinds of lighting features actually create productivity benefits. One of the interesting things about the well building standard is they deal with things beyond like daylight and they deal with color, natural light, activity based lighting. Just more substantial ways of looking at it. The well building standard and LEED are actually, there's about a 20% overlap, because obviously LEED or BRIAM or other green building standards around the world, they do some things that help health and wellness, but the well building standard actually just codifies more kinds of features.

So that's the way that you have to do it. You have to think about your property, understand the nature of your features, understand what creates value in these kinds of properties. And as you're going through and you're saying, well, do we want to do this or do we want to do that and why? Well, let's look at fundamental reason why it would or wouldn't create value. Maybe we'll do these things first.

And some of them are the actual certification itself. Certifications do have value because sustainability reputation is becoming increasingly important. There has been a huge sea change in the way that the business world is looking at sustainability that makes investments in properties or even across the portfolio much easier to monetize because they feed into this broader thing that's happening in society related to measuring the performance of sustainability. Probably you've heard of Gresby, the global real estate sustainability benchmark. That is a, you have about 800 companies and funds.

So the rating sustainability for real estate companies and funds. And this has been an absolute sea change in the real estate world because now all the pension funds can now specify that they want people to pay attention to their Gresby ratings. And they have 60 or 70% of REITs and private companies have been voluntarily contributing now to Gres. And that's powerful. We have the Sustainable Accounting Standards Board which is getting up and running.

We have the United Nations principles and the carbon disclosure project. GreenPin which is run by ULI which looks at energy and sustainability at the property level. NERI has a very powerful real estate sustainability council. And now there are multiple ways you can measure REITs. Bloomberg has an ESG data service for all their companies, the Dow Jones Sustainability Index.

And I literally could go on about all the ways. And probably most important is that very recently the head of BlackRock, which is the largest investor in the world probably, who basically said that we're at a point now in the world of a corporation. Companies have to think beyond profits in thinking about some of these things which is really quite amazing statement to make. So the question, let's say I'm the sustainability director that I really know this stuff's important but I need to actually, I have the bean counters and I have the other people in my office and I was not much into this.

I have to convince them that it's valuable. So what I need to do is I need to let them know, how do I actually calculate the value of having better compliance and ranking better across all these things? And my publication is absolutely subject to financial analysis. You can calculate the promotion and marketing cost advantages. You can calculate customer access is critical.

I mean, today I thought it was great they wade into the political realm. The EU is saying that they're not gonna negotiate new trade agreements with anybody who isn't on board with the Paris Climate Accord. And that kind of thing has been happening with corporations in the green world for a long time where they want their suppliers to follow the green supplier rules. That's become a big thing. The key thing is it is subject to analysis and it is subject to putting on paper and making that decent and convincing argument.

Yeah, two things come to mind as I'm listening to you. I love the fact that there is a direct way to quantify the value. And I think that there's a lot of information out there that does not put this type of information in those terms. It really is about, you know, oh, the benefits of people. It's not the benefit of the company per se that's implementing it or for the investor perspective, right?

And then I've also been aware of this McKinsey report about wellness that talks about wellness being the next trillion dollar industry. And like you mentioned, all those companies or all those organizations that are pushing for sustainability and their respective focus, it makes sense. It makes sense that this is happening because there is a now more visibility on the effect, the benefits of choosing to be sustainable. There's been some incredible scientific studies and then technology that follows it up. For example, we now know that with science that you can deal with circadian lighting, which is the rhythms of lighting have very significant effects on your cognition and your sleep.

We now have the technology that allows you to create a circadian lighting system and actually address it. We now have monitors and sensors that can monitor indoor air quality things. And then we have technology that can address it. We can move air around, we can do things. And so we're at a really interesting time where the technology and the science, incredible demand by employers and employees for this health and wellness, not just that sustainability broadly, that we can actually implement things that are both cost-effective and powerful value creators.

Yeah, totally. The other thing that I think that people miss it, acknowledge is that we really spend about 90% of our time in buildings, unless we're really outdoorsy, right? But I mean, you know, but even so, the majority of our lives we're spending indoors. And what this actually causes is, you know, health issues, especially with the way buildings have been built over the years. I think there's also a lack of knowledge about the volatile organic compounds or, you know, so many different materials that have negative impacts on people.

And that now we have to counteract them. Yeah, absolutely. And we're starting to get, you know, much better. One of the things I hear from building owners and corporations is that particularly health and wellness is a tricky area because if you know that your buildings are actually not healthy buildings, but they're actually, you know, increasing health problems, you can say, well, I don't want to analyze that because then, you know, I'll have to deal with it. And I have this great slide that I use, which is that it shows like the 10 things that individuals can now buy on their wrist.

I mean, there's so many ways people are going to be measuring the air quality, the lumens, and they're going to be able to assess their own environments. And they're going to be the ones that are demanding this stuff. People that have the choice. Again, we have an equity situation in America. It's obviously the kinds of employees that are in demand, the technology people, you know, the well-educated, the finance people, whatever, they're going to get this stuff.

But I do know that Delos and me personally are committed to not just healthy for the wealthy. There are tremendous things you can do in affordable housing and other kinds of environments that are not really that expensive. And so it's an interesting tack on all of this, but people are not going to be willing to be in buildings they know hurt their education performance of their kids, reduce their lifespan. We're at the start of a long-term movement in this regard. Well, and you mentioned the technology, right?

And the monitors on the wrist. I really think that the age of Internet of Things is here. When you look at a building like the Edge in Amsterdam, you know, that's just the beginning. When we see stuff like that happening in new construction, there is a challenge that we have to address our existing construction to do the retrofits. Retrofits are, you know, really important.

And that's why I really have put a lot of my time and efforts. The actual kinds of methodologies are really fairly straightforward. It's like how much revenues can you create? How much does it cost? And what are the benefits to me, whether I'm a business or a property?

It's fairly straightforward. And it can be applied to existing buildings and even better to new buildings. But it's definitely possible. When I talk to engineers, they always say, well, that seems so complicated. And I say to them, I go, have you ever looked at the electric schematic for a building?

I mean, I'm blown away. I mean, the stuff I'm talking about in the finance world is not overly complicated. It's not calculus. It's a plus and minus and maybe some multiplication there. It's not super calculated when it comes down to it.

You just have to know how the technology works and understand how it affects people. The real trick, and this may be a little bit digit-headed, is really about attribute, because you have all this research and studies, but none of them are on your building or they don't address exactly what you're doing to your building. So what you need to be able to do is you need to be able to look at all the best research, all the best analytics, look at what you're doing in your building and attribute intelligent decision.

And what's interesting about that is that a lot of times sustainability or energy efficiency investment is put on, you know, show me the money. You got to do that. And I always ask people, well, how do you know how much your investment in your lobby, how much value did that create, how much ROI? There are so many decisions that developers, when they develop a property, building owners make, but they have some idea. I know that lawyers tend to like lobbies like this.

That's been my experience. The sustainability world's had to go overboard on something being perfect financially when the rest of the real estate industry doesn't do this. Another example I use is there's a chief marketing organization for all the heads of marketing and promotions. You know, 20% of the investment by companies or their costs are for marketing and promotions. They do a survey every year of these 5000 chief marketing officers.

Over 70% of them have no idea the value created or the benefits of the 20% of their cost structure. But somehow they make investments, but we have a structure and a technique, sensitivity analysis and the way that we go about our work, that is, that we've been using for years. I'm just proposing let's use the same stuff that we normally use in our capital allocation and investment decisions and let's make it work for sustainability. It's completely possible to do. Yeah, I love that perspective.

I think that it's something for companies to start investigating if they haven't already. Honestly, at the end of the day, it takes someone who is affected long term or they have a family member that's affected long term where they have a health issue or something comes up where they have to take multiple sick days, things like that. And that's when they recognize like, OK, yeah, coming to work in a space, whether they're C-suite executive or if they're someone else in a company, they recognize that the built environment, it truly does affect you.

And it shouldn't take all of that. It shouldn't take that recognition about, oh, yeah, this is the impact that it's actually making and it's right here in my face. I think on a fundamental level, this is something that kind of drives home with me, with health and nutrition and things like that. You really have to make decisions about just taking the next steps to take control of your life, take control of your scenario, the environment, your own wellness. And that does include buildings.

Yeah, you bring up nutrition, which is a really interesting one. One of the great things about what you can do in a building is that the problem with health and wellness is that the big corporations have real trouble in getting people to participate in the programs. And so you want to make people not eat as much candy. There's this one giant company that I won't name. You know, their engineers were eating so many M&Ms.

So what they did is they couldn't get rid of the M&Ms, right? They got rid of some stuff, but they couldn't get rid of them. So they put them on the bottom shelf and they actually measured a 35% reduction in consumption. Then they put them behind some glass on the bottom shelf. They got another 26%.

So they ended up reducing consumption of this bad food. And then they put the higher quality, the vegetables, the other kinds of interesting snacks that are more healthy. They put them at eye level. And they had almost a sea change without actually eliminating the M&Ms. And there's all kinds of really interesting things, the way better signage for stairways, putting lights and art or music in the stairways, encouraging stairway use.

There's a tremendous amount of the health and wellness things that you can do that affect the behavior and are passive. Everybody gets the benefit. That's one of the exciting things about looking at sustainability broadly as energy, health and wellness. You know, one thing that we didn't touch on in the well building standard, you mentioned IAQ, indoor air quality. We talked just right now about nutrition, light, fitness, comfort.

But we didn't talk too much about mind. What does the standard include as far as the features go as it relates to mind? I'm curious. One of the important things is a biophilic design. For those who don't know what that means, that essentially is designing nature into the workplace, you know, water, lights and so forth.

There's a tremendous amount of work that's been done in the last number of years. And some of the studies on productivity are actually just amazing. You know, increases of 10% levels of well-being and productivity, 13% in Europe and the Middle East, a huge study that was done. And so also you have things like control over your environment, you know, quiet spaces and they have yoga breakout rooms. They have behavioral things, access to mental health and other kinds of things.

So the well-building standard actually deals with construction stuff, but it also deals with behavior and changes in policies, right? So there's a variety of types of policies that deal with mind related issues. And so it's a very, very interesting people in the well building movement believe in the mind body connection for sure. Scott, I want to ask, what have we missed? What do you think that the audience needs to hear as it relates to deep energy retrofits and the well-building standard that we haven't covered thus far?

The key thing is that the preferred way to make decisions is to integrate your assessment of health and wellness and sustainability into your normal due diligence. And you need to actually understand how these kinds of investments can create value and go and find the numbers and put it together. And I do have to say that going and finding specific studies that support the investment is very, very time consuming. And so the whole essence of my work, which is all freely available on my website and through a variety of different books and other things that work that I've done, is that I've actually just laid out a lot of the data and the studies.

And then I would say that one thing that you might not have picked up is that it's actually harder to take all this research that's done, whether it's for lighting or indoor air quality or whatever it is, that's done like on specific properties. It's actually easier when I have an actual property. I don't have to have generalities. I know what kind of investment it is. I know who my employees are.

It actually becomes much more real. And that's what the decision makers need. And then more importantly is that you need to start actually at a portfolio level. Some of the studies on the health and wellness stuff or the lighting, it's really, really compelling. But when you start to apply to a property, people will say, well, I don't believe that.

But when you start talking about, well, why we should be adopting and working on these policies at a portfolio wide level, you actually can aggregate those benefits. And in my different documents, I do lay out how to do that. That's the place that you need to start is you want to get somebody up above to understand this, that at a portfolio level, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to have a property portfolio, whether it's investor owned or for your employees, that is highly ranked and a high level of basically just high performing for our people and for our tenants.

And you get people to do that. And then you go down and do your analysis at the property level, figure out which properties make the most sense first. There's intelligent ways to tactically go about doing this. And that kind of thinking is the kind of thinking that more senior decision makers with the money, they sort of expect that. Yeah, that totally makes sense.

And I think that the resources that you're referencing, at least a couple of the papers that I've read, they've given some really great examples of how to approach an analysis. I think that's highly useful. And I think just like you said, seeing it how it applies to the portfolio at large, that can really help you make the next steps in what you're hoping to do to adjust your built environment. Yeah, when the CEO says he wants something, it's amazing how it tends to happen more often down at the lower level.

Indeed. Well, with that, Scott, I want to ask you, what's the best way to contact you and learn more about what you're doing? The best way is to go to www.moldaven.com. It has all my contact information and my publications there, my Value Beyond Cost Savings book, which is freely available through my website. I did two publications with the Rocky Mountain Institute, one called How to Calculate and Present Deep Retrievalue for Owner Occupants.

And a similar volume on How to Calculate and Present Deep Retrievalue for Investors. And those documents lay out a methodology and have a whole sample analysis on a real property and show you some of the results. And then most recently, I've done three publications on health and wellness that take the same kind of analysis, focusing on health and wellness and provide a very specific model and all the data supporting that model. And so my model is an Excel model. And I put a there's a PDF on my website.

If you contact me, I'll send you Excel and word copies of everything so you can use it and help spread the goodwill of better, healthier and more high performing buildings. Thanks so much, Scott. This has really been a pleasure. I really enjoyed the time talking with you today. My pleasure, too.

Thank you. If you liked this episode, find out more in the show notes at Constructor.com slash EP 97. If you learned something valuable in this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues. You can also let me know if you enjoyed our discussion by connecting with me on Twitter at Brittany underscore CT, or you can find me on LinkedIn. Lastly, you can also email me at B R I T T and I E at Construct double R dot com.

That's B R I T T and I E at Construct double R dot com. Next week, you'll be hearing from yours truly. That's me. I was invited back to the Mechanical Contractors Association to speak at their annual engineers luncheon. I spoke at their tech day conference back in March and had a great time.

Fortunately, I was invited back. In this talk, I discuss the changing age we're in, one that is meant to take advantage of the network platform economic model that's affording companies to grow in valuations beyond any financial analyst expectations. An economic model where our interactions can create a knowledge asset library for us to better resource our projects with the right engineering talent. Where engineering talent can access more profits by becoming a knowledge asset firm. We can take advantage of these network platforms through blockchain communities, and I discuss how the projects I'm involved with can demonstrate that.

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