Transcript: How to Make Efficiency Go Viral in Your Organization! - with Diana Pisone

Hello, I'm Brittany Campbell-Turner and this is the Constructor Podcast, session number 23. Hello and welcome to this episode of Constructor, the best way to build it. This podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. I want to help property owners foster trusting relationships with your project teams, help you understand how to lower risk and be under budget and on schedule in your construction projects and exceed your end user's desires. Today my interview is with Diana Pissone.

Diana is a delightful person to speak with. You'll see that the way she moves through work and life is by helping people to solve problems. She enjoys the challenge. Diana gravitates towards making workplace and team collaboration more efficient. We cover a few ways that she has always loved to do that as well as how she does that as team principal at Ted Mutus and Associates in Chicago.

She promotes a culture where the question, how can I help, is the norm amongst her 70% female team. The entire company fosters that environment so the staff can achieve their goals through learning and development as well as provide the best service they can to their clients. Without further ado, listen to my podcast interview with Diana. Welcome to the Constructor podcast, the best way to build it, Diana. Fantastic, thank you for having me.

Well let's jump right into the interview. First things first, you have had the opportunity to manage a group of 70% women in a male dominated industry here at the Ted Mutus and Associates office in Chicago. Tell us about how you got to this point. It was nothing designed, it was nothing intentional. It just sort of organically happened that our office is largely comprised of women.

Yes, the construction real estate industry is primarily men, but we just were looking for the right fit, the right person to fulfill designer needs or architect needs or whatever the role might be. The people that came to us were primarily word of mouth. Someone in the industry knew us, someone who worked with us, recommended someone that they knew, and it just organically happened that our office started filling up with women. And again, it wasn't something we were planning, it was just something that works well. And again, when we look to fulfill positions, we certainly never look at a person's gender.

That's never something that matters to us. It's just organically how it happened, but actually our most recent hire is a man. So that's sort of poking that hole in us being primarily women here. I think it goes to prove that we have a very strong, comfortable, supportive environment that people want to work in, that people want to recommend others to work in. And it's just a really good group of people.

That's lovely to hear. It's really interesting because people, you're right, people really don't think about, well, this person is this gender, so let me go ahead and hire. That doesn't typically happen. It's slightly illegal. Yeah, well, exactly.

And it's quite interesting that you just kind of came upon this based upon the value that you have and the people that you hire and the word of mouth. People, they kind of attract similar types of people. I was going to say like attracts like. Exactly. So that's interesting.

Well, let's dig into a little bit more about your background here. How did you fall in love with design in the workplace industry? So before I understood what the term interior designer was or really what architecture was, I was doing it. I remember the earliest childhood memory I have of being in love with design. My father took me to his office on a Saturday.

He had to go there. I tagged along, no big deal. And I was probably maybe five, six, seven years old, somewhere in that range. And I was walking through from the elevator lobby, through the suite, over to his office space that was by a window. When I got there, I was always drawing.

That's just how I was self-entertained. And what I drew was his office and sort of the maze I took to get there from the elevator lobby. And in my mind, my thought process was, well, there has to be a better way to design an office so children can see where they're going when they come to visit their parents. Because the panels were these like 72 inch high Hamilton original workstation panels. And my whole thought process was from that of a child.

Make it better for the child. So whenever I was drawing or designing, as I got older and I realized there was an outlet for what I liked to do and there was a profession, I could earn money at it. Because when I was little, I wanted to be an artist. And I told my mom that. She's like, we'll find a way to make money at it.

So this is how I found a way to make money at it. I was never drawn to residential. I was never drawn to hospitality. I was drawn to the balance, the simplicity of office space. Not so much simplicity, but more it just seems level headed to design an office.

It seems almost natural for me. But there's a purpose. There's almost like math. It makes sense. It's right or it's wrong.

There's no gray in there. So you were naturally attracted to it. There's an analytical part of, to me, of workplace design of office design. Yeah, there's this a little bit of a creative flair, but there's a way to make things better. There's a way to make things simpler.

There's a way to make things smarter, sharper, faster. So it sounds like you have an innate desire to improve the productivity of people. Oh, yes, absolutely. So that kind of goes back to, I'm in high school. I'm writing letters to get scholarships to college, whatever little scholarships I could pick up.

And I had this idea of how to make an office place better, smarter, sharper, faster. It was tying together the thought process of Frank Lloyd Wright, whoever knows, great American architect, and Frank Bunker Gilbreth, who not a lot of people know of, but he was an early time efficiency expert, for lack of a better term. And a book that was written about his life was called Cheaper by the Dozen. There was a book, there was a movie in the 30s, 40s, 50s, maybe, 40s, probably. And then they did a remake, which in the 2000s with Steve Martin, that had nothing to do with the real story.

But basically, being an efficiency expert, it was how to do it better, how to spend less time doing what you had to do, so you could have more time to do what you wanted to do, just in a quick nutshell. So the thought was, okay, let's take Frank Lloyd Wright, who also had these ideas, sort of an early lead innovator of how to design places that spoke to the environment where it was regionally, utilized materials regionally from an efficiency standpoint, as well as from a, it blends into the environment standpoint.

So Frank Lloyd Wright's there. And then Frank Bunker Gilbreth of how do you, you're going to the coffee maker. How do you, you typically take 20 steps every time you go there, and you go there four times a day. Okay, so those 20 steps take you a minute each time, whatever. So that's four minutes a day.

Well, if you could take less steps, or you go there less often, okay, maybe that saves you 15 seconds a day. But 15 seconds times five days a week, times four weeks in a month, times 12 months in a year, how much time does that roll up to saving you? So okay, great. What does that gain you? Well, you're not leaving the office early, but it gives you more time to make more widgets, be on more phone calls, call more clients, do more within your, let's call it eight hour work day, because you're spending less time in these walking to the coffee maker, walking to the printer, or whatever it might be.

So tell us a little bit about your efficient office equation. Okay, so that's where I started talking about this thought that started in high school. So I wrote this paper, how to combine the works of Franklin Wright and Frank Bunker Gilbreth into this total efficient office. And it was the idea of space efficiency plus time efficiency will equal cost efficiency. So SE plus TE equals CE.

And it was that kind of thought. So if you design the area efficiently, that space efficient, you'll naturally inherently become time efficient. And this actually has nothing to do with how you actually do your job. It's all the non job related ideas. So therefore, you're being able to do more things for your company and getting more done rather than having to hire another person, or they're making more money because you're a more productive person.

And then you could translate that into the cost efficiency of not just the staff, not just the productivity, but also the real estate as well. So the cost efficiency is almost threefold. What I appreciate about your perspective is that, and this may be another layer, is that you do things like go to the coffee machine or break up your attention. There is that level of waste, if you will, in attention and focus, which is going into the psychological perspective of things. But I think that it absolutely integrates into this model that you're defining.

And I think you're absolutely right in how you've evaluated this. So I think that's really cool. There is something to be said for that breakaway time that's allowing you to detach, it's allowing you to rest your mind. So when you come back, you are more 100% in the activity in front of you. So there's a balance there.

There's a balance, right? There could be that purposeful breakaway. And then there is the obviously unintentional breakaway where you might get the pop up of the email in the bottom of the corner of your screen where your attention goes away there. Or if somebody approaches you and disrupts you and your train of thought is totally disruptive. And that could reduce your time efficiency.

But the space, the waste design, will also determine whether that's going to take place as well. So I think that's a really cool model. And I can think of so many other ways to think about how to apply that. I think it's super cool. So I guess kind of getting back to, well, this podcast is dedicated quite a lot to lean principles and lean methodologies.

Did you find yourself attracted to that as you were researching your efficient office model? You know, it wasn't specifically the lean model. It was sort of independent of it or in parallel to it that I just found that there were these synergies amongst it. So it wasn't that the lean model inspired me to have these thoughts. It was more these thoughts were happening and, oh, there's other people that think this too.

Isn't that great? And there was someone that used to inspire my father. He was, again, an Italian efficiency expert, sort of. He was Edward Deming. And Edward Deming, for those that don't know, he was an engineer, a post-World War II engineer that kind of went around to the United States automakers, again, post-World War II, and sort of came up with this idea on how to make them more efficient.

And they kind of laughed at him a little bit. So he's like, well, fine, I can go peddle my ideas somewhere else. So he started peddling his ideas in the Asian market and was working for the automakers out there. And I think it was in the early 70s there was a PBS special about him and what he was doing. And one specific automaker in the United States, well, wait a second, why is one of our United States treasures helping the quote unquote enemy, for lack of a better term?

We need him to work for us. So they lured him back to the United States. And it was Ford, actually. And so Deming's 14 points of management, sort of, is not a top-down, bottom-up, and top-down all at the same time, but sort of revolutionized how Ford was working. It's not just the assembly line, it's the management also.

And I always think back to this, because when I think back to what was 2008, 2009, when so many of the American auto industry was taking bailouts from the American government because we were in financial crisis at the time and they needed it, that I believe Ford was, either didn't take it or took the least amount of money. And so I don't know if it was specifically because of Deming or many other reasons, but I'd like to think that he had an influence on that, and his 14 points of management and his directive and supportive nature to Ford.

Yeah. And I would have to just definitely caveat and say, when I first got introduced to Lean, someone who recommended to me to read the Toyota Way, which is one of the Asian companies, if not the main Asian company that we speak of that Deming influenced. And those 14 points of management, they definitely translate over into the 14 quality management points that are in the book, the Toyota Way. And they're not like for like. They're not exactly the same, right?

But you can see the cross-influence. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that we definitely can speak to him and those who have learned from him and improved on that model. Definitely.

Yeah. Hmm. Okay. So yeah, thanks for that bit of lesson there. Bringing us back to the basics.

Right. Right. Absolutely. I love what you said about it's not just process, but it's about management of the people. Absolutely.

And I think that, and we'll get to this a little bit later in the next set of questions, but I think that that kind of brings us back to being a woman and having a voice here in the industry. I want to ask you specific questions about how you manage your team a little bit later, but how do you think that the approach to efficiency and the approach to better management are improved or are influenced by women in general? You know, honestly, I've never, I don't know if it's the way I was raised or just inherently who I am.

I've never really looked at it, how a man manages, how a woman manages. I look at it how a person manages another person and whether they've had the right instructions in training or they've sought out learning models to be a better manager or a better team person. So honestly, I don't look at it man versus woman doing something. I just look at it as is it the right person? Because just like someone who might be really good at something may be really bad at teaching other people because they've never learned how to teach.

It doesn't mean they're, so you have these great architects and they go to teach a class and you have a class who's excited to be there because they're in the presence of a really impressive architect, but he doesn't or she doesn't know how to walk them through the process because they just know what's in their head. They don't know how to break it down. And then you might have someone who's a really great teacher, but they've never really created something monumental, but they know how to create other really great architects because they know how to build up others.

So I think there's a difference between being able to build something personally and being able to shelter and encourage others to greatness. And I don't think that's a man or woman thing. I think that's just an inherent personality thing. Absolutely agree with you. There is something to say.

I mean, it is International Women's Day. Definitely was International Women's Day. Was it last week? Well, it was the eighth. So there is something to say about there is sort of a perspective from onlookers, wherever they may be, whoever they are, it could be men, it could be women, that there is a perception that maybe some should not be able to do something well because they are a man or a woman.

But what I like about your perspective is that just find out, just ask the question, just see what their skill set is and build upon it. And if they don't have it, give them the tools so they can create it. And if they still can't go there, find what they're good at and put them in a role where they succeed. Because not everyone's meant for every role. Not everyone's meant to be at the front of the chorus line.

Some people are supposed to be in the orchestra pit supporting them and you need both. Did you always have this perspective? Yes. Yes. Again, I think this really goes back to how I was raised, the schooling I went to as a young child, just always fostering this.

You can do anything, you can be anything. It's you. It's completely on you. And if you don't get it, you must not want it. Or you haven't worked hard enough for it.

That's awesome. I mean, it's so simple. But I think there's definitely something to say that people need to start recognizing this as a conscious thought. Sometimes it's very subconscious. People have subconscious bias.

And I think that's why we have these conversations. To just kind of bring awareness to the fact that, guess what? It's just that simple. You have to want it enough, you have to work hard enough for it, and sometimes you have to wait for it. Yes.

Yes. So, all right, I have questions here. Whatever you want. I'm just kind of thinking through. I just love that perspective.

Well, it appears you like the challenge. Absolutely. You like the challenge no matter what it is. You're a woman. If you were a man, you'd like the challenge the same way.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, tell me what you like about the challenge. About enjoying challenge or about my daily, weekly work challenge. Whatever way you'd like to go. What I like about challenge in general is that I think it gives, whether I'm the only person seeing it as a challenge or other people are, I feel it gives me a chance to prove what I know, prove my worth, even if, again, it's just to myself, and go, okay, yeah, I've accomplished something.

I deserve to be here today because I've done something good. Or I fixed a problem. And again, not everyone wants to be a problem solver. Not everyone is inherently that's what they want to do. But that is in my nature to want to fix, to make better, to help other people learn how to fix and make better so they can go on and create their own fixtures and make her better people.

As far as what I like about the challenges in my personal work environment, it's that I have this really incredible team that has sort of that same spirit, that same, we want to do it better than we did the day before. We want to make the client happy. We want to create a great environment for them. We want more. We want better.

And we're enjoying what we're doing. And so that part's not a challenge at all because it's a great team to work with. Our clients are, whether it's challenging good, challenging bad, there's a challenge there that even if it's challenging bad, it's still an opportunity to learn and to make it better the next time. So you're definitely not of the mindset that if it's not broken, don't fix it. No, no, no, no.

I mean, I'm just saying there are people who approach things that way. There are certain things that, hey, you know, this worked last time, let's do it again. Because that would be silly not to. If you found something that works and that's a time saver, it would be silly to completely reinvent it every single time. But at least take a step back and go, are we doing it for the right reasons?

Are we repeating this for the right reasons or are we repeating it because we're lazy? If it's because we're lazy, then do something different. If it's because it's the right reasons, make the decision and move on. Because there's something else bigger waiting for you. Yeah, and that brings us back to, you may not know you're doing this, but the plan, do, plan, do, check, act approach.

You're reviewing every time. It seems you're taking a moment to step back and just take it in, assess, review, and make small incremental improvements if necessary. It's about not making assumptions. Things that might be standard, so standards of notes on a document, even if they're 100% standard, just read over them just one quick time and make sure there's something, everything in there is applicable. Take the time, because it's a lot easier to fix it before it goes out.

Something my dad said to me is, if there's time to fix it, there's time to do it right the first time. So, do it right the first time. So, that's what we did. That's so lean in the way that you approach it. I was so lucky.

I'm awesome. I have really great parents. I really did. That is definitely fortunate, is to have that wisdom kind of passed down to you. Okay, well, what excites you about leading your team?

I feel like I'm repeating what I said, is that I don't feel like I have to lead them, because, I mean, yeah, you're always instructing and supporting or answering questions or guiding, but it's not like I'm never pulling them, because they're running alongside. I feel like they're pushing me. I feel like how good they are, I need to be better. And not because to show off, but like I need to be better than I am, not better than them, better than I am, so they're still proud.

What do you think drives them? I mean, obviously, you hire, you make the effort to hire, right, to get the right people in place, right? What makes you think, I mean, just kind of doing a general overview, what do you think makes them driven? I would guess similar reasons. They are problem solvers.

They are, I don't want to say people pleasers, because that has a really negative connotation, but they want to do the right job. They want to see clients in better environments that work smarter for them, and they care about each other. They care about the clients. They don't want to leave something undone. What about the environment that is created here allows for that mentality to evolve and take place?

I think it has to do with that caring nature, that, okay, we're on however many different teams, team A is swamp, team B is light, team C and team D, they're just sort of floating along, just perfect at level pace. Well, everyone sees that team A is completely swamped, so they don't need anyone to tell them. They just automatically jump in and go, hey, I can help you for a couple hours here, so you're not here until midnight, and we're both only here until 7 o'clock, because they inherently hope that someone would do that for them, and they do.

So it's just more of a, I make this better for you, it makes it better for all of us, the firm looks better, and we all elevate together. So there is that bit of autonomy to go ahead and take responsibility and help. Everyone has their individual responsibility, and it's not given to them. Everyone has taken it. Everyone has owned it.

We might sometimes say, okay, who wants to take this, who wants to take this, just at the beginning of a project, but a lot of the time, this automatically happens. Hey, I'm going to take this. Okay, great, I'm going to take this, or hey, you know, I haven't had a chance to work on this kind of thing. Can I try this next time? Absolutely.

It's yours. Go learn it. Go own it. So there's a really open dialogue of what do you want to learn next? What have you not had a chance to experience yet?

How can we either help mentor you? How can we help you develop professionally? What can we do to make this experience better? Because if we are helping the staff become better, if we are helping the staff develop, they feel more fulfilled, and that ownership will inherently be in there, and that way the client is served better, and again, the whole group, the whole firm continues to elevate. One question, it sounds like you're asking as a leader of the team is how can you help them?

Absolutely. So it sounds like it's coming back around as to how can they then help you, or the company and then client, and it sounds like it's a revolving circle, if you will. And that's really important. What that allows is their voice to be heard. I think part of it also goes to at least the culture of this firm, and I won't say this is industry wide, but the ownership of our firm, they reside in New York.

The firm, Ted Buddhist Associates, we were formed in New York and came to Chicago about 15 years ago. However, Ted started this company in 1990, and he started with just a handful of people, and it's grown, it's grown, it's grown, but he's still, obviously he's an active member of the firm, he's there every day. He's not like one of the namesakes of other firms that you have no idea who they are. Ted is there. But he is a business partner, Chris, they treat this almost like it's a family firm, because it is, it's a corporation, but you feel their genuine interest in you.

They feel that they want you to succeed. They, when you go, sometimes I'll go to New York for a day or two to work there for whatever reason, business reason or I'm doing something personal in New York on the weekend, hey can I work out in New York for a Friday, and everyone has that equality to do that, people come to Chicago and work out of the Chicago office, but you have this genuine understanding that they're interested in you. They, oh you're in New York for the weekend?

I went to New York for a weekend with some girlfriends, gosh, years ago, and it was a completely personal visit, I took a couple days off, and we were doing the sites and whatever, and then I came back to Chicago and I was on the phone with ownership in New York, and I said oh yeah, I was there this weekend, you were here this weekend, I'm like oh yeah, I was there Thursday, Friday, and seeing the town with my girlfriends, like well why didn't you stop in?

I'm like oh I was there with a whole bunch of my girlfriends from college, they're like but you could have stopped in, we would have liked to meet them, or I felt like I had gone home during college and not said hi to my parents, but there's this genuine caring about the staff, you're not just a staff member, you're part of the company. I think that, again, that top down feeling resides throughout every layer of the firm. Now that speaks volumes, I think that's the type of culture that you want to run through an organization, because it translates to how you produce work for your clients as well.

That genuine desire to help and care, it's there, and people can recognize that. I'm going on my 12th year here, and I'm having fun, I'm excited, the clients are provoking and interesting, and Ted and Chris are supporting me, and the staff we help each other out as I've gone through, and it's a good experience, and I'm so excited to be here. That's awesome. Alright, couple quick questions about innovation. How are you integrating BIM or any other technologies into your organization?

So Revit is something that we work in, and not every project, I'll say, I don't feel that every project may be appropriate for Revit. I think there are some projects that are just so tiny and small that you may not need it. I can see the savings that it creates. For example, when we break out a project, we have so many hours to do a project. When we break it out, you have so much time to do the initial upfront programming, and then so much time to do schematic design, design development, construction documents, etc.

And we pay attention to that, how much time do we actually spend doing each one, and then we look back at it, okay, this project, okay, we were high in design, but less time in CDs or whatever it might have been. And a recent project that we did in Revit, very, very high design project, very complicated, not so much complicated, but intricately detailed. We were cutting our slab, we were adding this pretty impressive staircase that is being supported hanging from a ceiling, and we did this project in Revit, or at least architecturally we did, and our hours for construction documentation were way low.

When it's something that's this detailed, you would think that it would have been higher. It would have been accepted for it to be over hours, but we were under hours, and we probably spent more time doing it than we really needed to, because of doing all those details, and we were still under the hours we needed to be. But I completely attribute that to the fact that we did it in Revit, and there were so many time savers just in pulling up elevations, details, etc. Do you then hire your MEPs separately?

Do they integrate into the same model? We don't always specifically hire the MEPs, it's the client who hires the MEPs. Whether they choose to do it in Revit or not, it's not something we can always force on them. It would be great if they did, that would be a really nice holistic attitude, especially since having the stair or having a movable wall that has above-ceiling support, and there's ductwork going through, that would be great to pre-coordinate, because that's the purpose of it. But you can't always control consultants that are not your direct hires.

Fair enough. So have you had the experience then to collaborate in that way with your engineering? Unfortunately, no, I have not. If we could, this would have been a perfect project to do it on, but it did not happen. So because of that though, we are seeing instances in the field where we're having to old-school it and troubleshoot it in the field, because it wasn't pre-coordinated, because they didn't do it in Revit when we could have caught it.

So we're catching it and we're fixing it, but we could have skipped that step and it would have been really nice, it would have felt good. How does that make you feel? Is it an efficient office? Oh gosh, we're kicking the air, because we feel like we missed this awesome opportunity. Next time, kick yourself for 30 seconds and then you go, could we have controlled it?

Well, we could have made a stronger request. We could have done this. Okay, we'll do that next time. Move on. Don't feel bad anymore.

Fair enough. Because the feeling of bad doesn't do anything. Very true. At the same time, creating the opportunity and making those recommendations, that's how you're going to do it next time. Okay, that's awesome.

So, let's see here. Do you have any recommendations for teams that want to be more collaborative and innovative? You guys have been successful at being quite a collaborative team merely because of the fact that you asked that question, and you asked, how can I help? You're asking, how can I provide for you as far as training? Are there any process improvements that we can review here?

What do you want? Yeah, what do you want? We try to meet quarterly with the staff so we can have these 10 questions or whatever. It might be of, how's everything going? How do you feel?

What do you want? What's next? What was your favorite thing that happened this quarter? What do you want to see happen next quarter? What do you want to do?

I think that 10 minute meeting, it doesn't have to be anything really long. Just taking that so everyone knows they have a voice. Everyone knows, even if they didn't know it and they should know it, that they can ask for what they want. People don't just hand you things. You don't always have to demand it.

You have to stomp on the floor. But you have to at least ask. You have to know what you want first. And then you have to ask for it. Because if you don't ask for it, no one knows that you want that.

Are those quarterly meetings in an open form or are they individually? Are you meeting individually? One on one. Is there any open form type of meeting that you do such a question and answer form? So every Monday morning we meet just to go over what's going on in the week.

And it's more of a staffing, what's going on socially, what do we have going on, anything that we all need to know. Okay, you're going to be out. Okay, how do we staff up? How do we support that? Et cetera.

How do we make your life easier? How do we make our lives easier? But again, that's more of a nuts and bolts staffing kind of thing. We do have open forums, design teams, technical teams. Hey, what's going on?

What's this? And that is actually across office, across Chicago, New York video conferencing. There's no state or time. It's more, hey, let's just meet. And it happens every once in a while.

Are there any obstacles that you've faced in trying to promote that dialogue? No. No. As far as the quarterly meetings, it was interesting. We were not exactly doing quarterly, but we were doing them sporadically.

And then our ownership said, you know, we want to officially do this quarterly. We were like, great, we were already doing it. Now that you've requested it, now it's going to force us to be more direct with it and more on time and more consistent with it. But it kind of fell into the pattern that we were already doing. It just formalized it, which was great.

So no, I have... No, that's fortunate. And I think we can learn from the concept of just doing things consistently. Absolutely. Yeah.

Again, ask the question, is there anything you can improve? Make sure you're doing consistently, making small tweaks here and there. I mean, that speaks to the value that you have in people that you're asking that question to your employees directly. And then I'm sure that translates to your clientele as well. The last question that I have for you is, how can people get in touch with you if they'd like to ask you questions about management, innovation, leadership?

Certainly. So they can always email me at the office. And that email address is D. Pisoni. So D.

P. I. S. as in Sam, O. N.

as in Nancy E. at tedmoodus.com. T-E-D-M-O-U-D-I-S. And I can go ahead and put that in the show notes as well. Perfect.

Yeah. So, well, thank you very much, Diana. You're very welcome. I've had such an awesome time just having this conversation with you. I love your personality and your attention to efficiency.

That's something that I think that you and I definitely appreciate. Without a doubt. Yeah. And I really think that our listeners are going to appreciate that. Wonderful.

I'm glad. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed having this conversation with Diana. She demonstrates the plan, do, check, act, process in the way she approaches work. Ultimately, if you don't measure, you cannot improve.

She has an insightful way to approach this and we can learn a lot from her. Thank you, Diana. If you have enjoyed this interview and are interested in Workplace, you might also be interested in our three-part series dedicated to co-working with Wendy Springberg. Check out the first of three at constructor.com slash 11. Don't forget to subscribe at constructor.com.

That's constructrr.com to get email updates on new podcast episodes. You can also subscribe at iTunes and we are now available on Stitcher. Also, if you'd like to suggest an interview, go to the About the Show tab at constructor.com and suggest an interview. We want to make this podcast continuously valuable for the constructor audience, but I need your help. So suggest an interview or topic that you're interested in.

Thanks again. I'm looking forward to talking with you guys next week.