Transcript: How to Develop a Collaborative Culture on Every Project with James Pease

If you can create an environment where everybody's voice matters, in the sense of a meritocracy, you're looking for the best ideas and you don't care where they come from, then in general, you get a better team environment and you get people rowing in the same direction. Hello, I'm Brittany Campbell-Turner and this is the Constructor Podcast, episode 22. Hello and welcome to this episode of Constructor. This podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about the construction projects. Hello everyone, thanks for joining me today and listening to Constructor, the best way to build it.

Today my interview is with James Pease. He represents himself here in this interview, but has loads of experience and perspective from working with Sutter Health as the regional manager for facility and property services there. He is a speaker trainer consultant for integrated lean project delivery with expertise in the IFOA agreement. If you don't know what the IFOA agreement is, we get deep into that during the interview, so you're going to appreciate that. All right, listen in.

James, welcome to this interview. I'm happy to have you on the Constructor Podcast, the best way to build it. So just to give a little sense to the audience, you have had the fortunate opportunity to be part of 15 plus projects and over I guess eight years using the integrated form of agreement contract. Tell us how did you get involved in utilizing the IFOA agreement? Well first of all, Brittany, thank you very much for having me.

It's a pleasure to be here and I really appreciate what you're doing for our design and construction industry. So like most things in life, I got involved in integrated form of agreement because my boss told me that I had to use it. I started at Sutter Health about eight and a half years ago. We had a very complicated renovation project in an operating hospital. My boss handed me the contract and said, here, this is how you're going to deliver your projects from now on and it's been a ride ever since.

So you really had no choice as to whether you were going to move forward with this or not, but it sounds like you've really, really enjoyed having to take this ride and learn more about IPD and integrated form of agreement. I would say definitely. I started my career working for a hospital and then working for a construction management consultant and the majority of the work we did was lump sum, low bid. We would do these bid packages and do public opening. I work for a district hospital for a while and then I moved from that experience where we had a lot of really tough projects to more of a GMP environment with pre-construction and at first I couldn't understand how we would know we were getting the best price and as we started working in this more collaborative environment, we realized that was a much better way to go.

So when I got to Sutter, this using integrated project delivery and the integrated form of agreement was kind of a natural step towards a more collaborative way to go and it's definitely the way that I like to work on anything that's complicated and has kind of a big impact if you don't deliver something accurately like infrastructure or complicated jobs in existing spaces. So you're working at Sutter Health now and I just want to get a sense of, you know, your boss handed this agreement to you and said you're going to go ahead and use this.

What drove that decision? Why did he want this particular agreement to be utilized at Sutter Health? So historically in California, all in-patient hospital projects are regulated by the Office of State Health Planning and Development, known as OSHPOD, and it's primarily for seismic compliance to make sure that when we have earthquakes, the hospitals are, they're not damaged and you're able to continue treating patients. So in order to do that, we have very stringent design guidelines and then you have to build the building exactly the way you show it on the plans.

So there really is no, we'll just figure it out in the field and when we were replacing a couple of projects before that, we had kind of consistently run into delays on projects and had budget challenges and that was the same in all the hospitals. I think I've worked in 12 hospitals in Northern California. Regardless of delivery type, they're always very difficult and so going to a more collaborative approach where we contractually tie the main players together so we either sink or swim together and then really bringing them on very early and having the builders participate in the design process, which is kind of the logical evolution of us trying to find a more reliable way of delivering projects in California.

Okay, so for those of you who are listeners and haven't heard the podcast with Nathan Wood, it seems like he was on the contractor side of a few of the projects over at Sutter Health and he also talked to me about OSHPD, but one of the things that he was able to get involved with was BIM, Building Information Modeling. So how did that kind of tie into the design accuracy that you guys needed given the OSHPD requirements? BIM has really been an amazing innovation over the last probably 10 years.

So being able to actually build virtually what you're going to install has completely changed the game. What we found is modeling on the design side, we really needed to take the model to a much more refined level where you could actually fabricate from your design model. So that was part of what drove onboarding of the mechanical, electrical, plumbing, framing, and drywall and sprinkler contractors much, much earlier than we had ever done in the past. Now we're doing kind of a collaborative handoff where the design engineers eventually hand off the design and let the actual constructors finish the detailing and then we try to flatten those drawings and give them back to the engineer of records.

So when we submit to OSHPD, we're permitting an actual buildable, prefabricatable set of drawings that's already been coordinated and we know we can build it the way we've designed it. Not that it's perfect, but it's light years ahead of where we were 10 years ago. That's amazing. I mean the fact that you're building something that's actually constructable to that level of detail and it's because of the input of the constructor themselves, I think that's hugely valuable and I think if we're not, if the whole industry is not working towards this, there are going to be a lot of opportunity for budget gaps and schedule gaps as there have been for years.

So I really appreciate that. I just appreciate that concept in general. I think it's allowing additional innovation too. Once we're able to get a team on board around everybody knowing what we're going to build, we're finding there's opportunities for prefabrication, there's opportunities for multi-trade prefabrication. With the total station and the automation of layout, we're finding the jobs are safer, they're cleaner, they're better coordinated and with all of that you get better productivity and therefore you get better outcomes.

There's just so many benefits. Okay. That's awesome. So let's talk a little bit about, and I guess we can go over IPD again, Integrated Project Delivery, but as it relates to the integrated form of agreement, could you give us a description, short description of what the integrated form of agreement is and how it relates to IPD? Yes, absolutely.

So there's a number of contracts that are out there. The integrated form of agreement is one that we use. Consensus Docs has one. There's a couple of good ones out there. The primary difference between our traditional contracting is that the design team and the construction team signs a single contract with the owner.

So rather than the owner hiring design and then advancing it to some point and then bringing on a general contractor with a separate contract, before we go to the board for funding, we'll select our main design and construction partners. They will help us develop the scope that goes to the board and then we will sign a single contract for a single dollar value for design and construction of that project. There will be a shared contingency that everyone on the team has access to. In exchange, the main players, usually the architect, structural engineer, main MEP designers, and then on the construction side, the general contractor, framing and drywall MEP, and then various other ones may be added based on the scale of the project.

They will agree to put 100% of their profit at risk. We will audit their overhead and we will guarantee their cost at actual cost. Now we typically cap the overhead, but they'll recoup overhead up to a cap. They'll get their cost guaranteed. The contingency will be a buffer for anything that missed.

We know nobody's perfect, so things will get missed. And we will offer a shared incentive. So if we don't spend all that contingency, we will split that with the team. And it varies from job to job on how much contingency there was and what split goes to the team and whether there's kind of a budgetary hurdle that they need to get to before we start sharing. But all in all, it doesn't matter whose causes the issue.

If there's an issue, the whole team ends up paying for it and the contingency is reduced collectively. And people get just a set percentage of the money that's left over based on how much of their profit at risk that they put compared to the overall bucket of profit for all of the members of the team. So long explanation in short, single contract, shared risk and reward, and only three types of change orders. Discovered site conditions that you couldn't figure out so if you find something underground.

If the agency changes something, so for us, if Oshpod radically changes the code, not a normal code revision, but out of the blue, something changes. Or the most common, if we the owner change something, if we add an operating room to the building, the contract gets increased. But there are no change orders for design refinement errors and omissions. We forgot this detail. We can't build this section.

All of those things are covered within the base contract amount. It's pretty different. Yeah, I mean, it definitely takes some elements of design build within that it's covered within the design contract. Because you'll have your specifications pretty much outlined via text, but at the same time, it's understanding that there's a level of detail that needs to go into it that will take it to that tech tech up into that prefabrication stage and then all the way through install. So just just that level of clarity, that level of detail must be incorporated.

Interesting. Yeah, so these these projects are governed usually by four people, a minimum of four people that we call the core group. You'll have the lead designer for the architect, the lead PM for the general contractor, you'll have the owner's representative, which would be my role or someone in my role. And then you'll have a primary user representative who represents the business case and the functionality. Those four people will collectively decide what is the best way to deliver each individual design and construction scope.

So a lot of a lot of our smaller projects, or even midsize project, we will just do design build for the MEP systems. Fire sprinklers basically always design build. And what we're trying to do if we don't go design build is get the best of both worlds get the traditional design engineer really bringing the newest innovation and also the the relationships with Osh pod and the other agencies and then bring in that design builder do it the most efficient way possible so that we know that we can build it.

Do you guys work with the same partners every time or or how does that work? How do you how do you actually hire people on? So we try to do a lot of repeat business. We internal policy is any project over 10 million dollars we need to do an RFP for designing construction. But we do not have to take the low bidder and usually we're doing a selection when the business plan may not even be complete yet.

So a lot of times we select we will ask for business terms. We'll ask what overhead do you want? What profit do you want? What are your what do you think your hourly rates are going to come up to? And then the most important thing who is your team?

Who are we actually going to work with? And what is their relevant experience? What are they going to bring to the project? So we'll assemble usually we'll have an architect and a contractor very early and then from there they will participate in onboarding the next group. So whoever's on the team already participates in bringing on the remaining partners.

And generally if you're doing good work then we're going to do our best to keep you on projects. And if we're not getting good outcomes then those players will generally be not asked to participate in the next RFP. How do you I guess how do you vet either if it's on architecture for instance as an architect or a general contractor who you've not worked with before and and I don't know how often this happens but how would you how would you vet a contractor to be to participate in the RFP?

How would how would you go about doing that? So it's not a huge market in northern California where we're based for what we're building but we will look at we always have more qualified contractors than we have jobs if that makes sense. So we're looking at who has done really good work and then we will look at who were the people. I can't emphasize enough that we're not really hiring companies we're hiring people and so you can have a company with the best reputation and you can get a team that's just not aligned with the delivery model and you all get very good outcomes and you can have a company that maybe doesn't traditionally do the type of work that we're looking for them to do but they can have people on the team that are really open-minded really collaborative really hard working and we get excellent outcomes.

So what we're trying to do is find out are these people that understand our goals on the project? Are they willing to work with us within the constraints we have to achieve our business goals? And I don't know you kind of get a hang for sometimes it comes down to did you read the RFP? If you come it's true if usually we'll put a lot in the RFP about the way we are looking to deliver the job and you'd be surprised how many times we find that they come in and just say like this is our way and it's nothing like what we've proposed in the RFP.

Yeah that's interesting I mean as an owner's rep in my day job I encounter some of that from time to time and one of the things that we absolutely look for is and it's just and it's just as and we will typically do GMP proposals but it's just as important as how are you how are you divvying up your your general conditions and your cost? Are you covering everything in your in your in your budget right? It's just as important those qualitative pieces they're just as important you really need to understand how the team is going to work with you.

Are they a cultural fit? Have they made sure to respond to every aspect of the RFP? If they have they missed something? You know these are just very simple things that kind of give you a good understanding of the character of the people of the people and I like that you emphasized people the people that are responding it's not necessarily the companies themselves. That's absolutely right we'll kind of think if you can't read the RFP then at least get the gist it's not that you have to be perfect but if you can't get the gist of what we're trying to accomplish then makes you wonder how it's going to go with the more subtle parts of design and another fun piece to this is we typically limit the project executive or the principal of the firm if it's a design firm to like no more than five minutes of their pitch and then we want the

actual project manager the actual superintendent the lead designer the medical planner we want to hear the interior designer we want to hear the majority of the interview from those people. Okay so you guys absolutely do an interview as part of your selection process? We do there's probably on some smaller jobs maybe we wouldn't where the people are known entities but if it's anything anything over 10 million we'll typically collect RFPs and then shortlist two maybe three at the most and do an interview and then make a selection.

When I introduced you I mentioned you used the IFOA or integrated form of agreement over 15 times could you give us an indication of what that agreement looks like? Yes absolutely so we're very much I'm personally interested Sutter is also interested although today I'm not speaking on Sutter's behalf I'm speaking on my own personal opinions but we're interested in helping the industry to improve and to help IPD grow and we want people that use IPD to be successful so IPD I would say is what you call it integrated project delivery is what you call it when you're working in this collaborative environment with an integrated contract and your profit at risk so we have a copy of our current contract that we freely share it has a disclaimer on it that tells you a little bit about what it is and what it is not and it's a pdf version so

it's a pdf version so this is not a contract that you go out and you just start using make sure that your first project is successful because you can't fail on your first project thanks for sharing about the IFOA and how it relates to integrated project delivery you sent me a draft IFOA agreement with the cover letter indicating how to successfully deliver projects I'd like to mention here the five big ideas collaborate really collaborate throughout design planning and execution is number one number two increase relatedness among all project participants number three projects are networks of commitments number four optimize the project not the pieces and number five tightly couple action with learning I think those are huge components of this agreement and I think that you rarely see language even identified in any other agreement that that sounds remotely similar to that I'm curious as to your your background like

how do you how do you see and I know you talked a little bit about the people but relationally how do you see the the difference in how people interact with each other and collaborate when you use ipd or use this form of agreement it's a good question so in general we're trying to create just a much tighter relationship among all the product project participants a lot of people think that the collaboration is all getting along sometimes collaboration is is pretty intense as you want people to actually represent their ideas in their positions and have some pretty intense dialogue until you come to a resolution on the way that the team wants to go so I'm sitting in a trailer right now where we have about 30 full-time people working on design and construction for a hospital expansion and it's really an exciting place to be there's a lot of energy there's a lot of stuff posted on the wall we're tracking

budget in very great detail we're managing people up we're giving people kind of leadership roles for parts of the project that they wouldn't typically be given a leadership role maybe they're a junior designer or a junior engineer on some part but they'll be in charge of say creating the inspection software or leading a design set for the project so I think I think we are creating it's almost like a family once a month we call it the first friday fandango which is a time for everyone to get together at lunch and get to know each other better understand who we are as people and then go back and figure out how we're going to deliver these complicated projects together I like that I really like that what is it first friday fandango yeah I think the design team came up with that but it's really it's really awesome we have a colloian of the month

which is the team roots for outstanding performer in the the co-location trailer so that that's the colloian of the month and there's a picture of them on a cardboard cutout when you walk into the trailer there's a lot of it's it's a much more fun way to work but we are definitely working hard it's not easy but I mean what do they say many hands make the work light you know it's it's one of those things especially when you have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty it makes a big difference when you have everyone on the same page even in the same room you know where you're co-located and and that energy just kind of permeates the room you know you have the support to to find the solutions to some of these issues that we all face on construction projects I think that's really cool

yeah I think if you focus on those things and it's fairly consistent across the organization you're getting better outcomes you can't help it in a sense I should say one one point on the five big ideas that's what we call those principles that you talked about those were collaboratively developed with about 200 stakeholders from the design and construction industry so that really it's not something the company came up with that was a facilitated discussion across all of northern California with key leaders about what are impediments to delivering good projects and what principles if we focused on would we get better outcomes and that's really once those were established the IFA way and an integrated project delivery was really an outcome of collaboratively defining those principles that's that's that's awesome I don't I don't want to downplay that like that's that's huge um that that many people came together and recognized that these five ideas are paramount

in order for this to be successful so that that's that's great I'm glad you told me that um because I'm just thinking you know this is just on the the cover page of the IFA way and a nice brief introduction but it really is the foundation upon which it stands very cool so so I guess kind of transitioning a little bit I mean we talked a little bit about what the dynamic and like the co-located room or the big room might be um but I do want to dig in a little bit about the teams at at Sutter Health I mean we talked a little bit about you know the fact that they must you know do these things collaborate relate with each other things of that nature these five big ideas but what makes what makes teams at Sutter Health or or anywhere else what makes them successful is there anything that

that you can say makes makes these teams or the individuals successful when participating in IPD I think at the core being open to learn new things to try new things having an environment where you can challenge each other in a respectful way so that you can you know regardless of rank or position and so we I think we see that within our own department and we also see that within our projects if you can create an environment where everybody's voice matters in the sense of a meritocracy you're looking for the best ideas and you don't care where they come from then then in general you just you get a better team environment and you get people rowing in the same direction just the concept of valuing every person's voice I feel like that's what what constructor is built upon yes where we're trying to figure out how to to to reduce the uncertainty to lower risk on

projects but I think that's how it's done I think that committing to making sure that you're you're consistently challenging each other and even even yeah just just getting people to to elevate that higher level of thinking um that's what that's what really reduces that uncertainty in projects ultimately because you're always testing testing the limits um I don't know I I'm just I'm really excited I'm really excited about what you're talking about and I and I think it's huge um that that's the dynamic that makes people successful it's not super common in this industry um or it hasn't been it's been a very hierarchical um setup and structure and recently I heard one of the superintendents said you know usually I come into a meeting and I say hey I have 30 years of experience you said now I realize I have 30 years of experience but if I listen to all of you I have 230 years of experience big

difference yeah it's when you come to that point of realization yourself that you can learn so much more if you just sit back and listen you know and and then ultimately collaborate collaborate with you know everyone's opinion and ideas you really do you know one plus one doesn't equal two anymore you know it equals 15 when you really when you really come to it with the mindset of openness yeah and in a constrained resource environment it has to we need one plus one to equal 15 yeah yeah exactly all right so so let's talk a little bit about lessons learned we we obviously understand that this is a this is a great way to approach construction projects what what do you think are the biggest lessons learned that that you've encountered over the past eight years so for me personally every project needs to kind of be nurtured and fostered at the beginning

I think I originally thought because the concept makes sense that teams would just automatically form and function at a really high level and do all the right things and eventually they get there but there's a lot of history there's a lot of tradition to break down there's a lot of people who even if you tell them they can speak up they don't speak up there's a lot of people who do it that way because we've always done it that way so a big lesson for me and I relearn it on every project is we don't take enough time to build the culture at the beginning of the job build that build the culture at the beginning of the job build that relatedness among the parties and then really teach some of the core lean concepts really facilitating the pull scheduling in the the last planner all the phases of the last planner system and even if people have just come

off an ipd job we really need to kind of start from scratch because it's a new team new variables and really nurture that's an interesting word to use but you really have to create the team environment on every project and I think that's a big part of the disclaimer on the is on the cover the contract is originally we thought just have people sign this contract and everything will go perfect and it doesn't in many ways it takes more effort and more commitment from us as the owners organization up front than we're used to and it makes us uncomfortable but for jobs to go better we have to make reliable commitments or durable decisions is a term we've been using lately so that the team can run with them and we we continually learn that we have to do better at that give me an example of what would what you would do to build the

culture of a team at the onset of a project sounds kind of silly but they use icebreakers a lot where you come up with a question and you know what would you do if you had a year on a paid sabbatical and you go around and you get each person to answer the question so if you do that in one meeting it's kind of a fun exercise you can get some giggles but if you do that three days a week for three months with all the same people you get to know pretty well who you're working with what their hobbies are what their quirks are what makes them unique and once you understand what makes them unique you know how to work with them and that was really eye-opening for me and that just happened in the last six months do you guys ever use those skill assessment tools like a strength finder

1.0 kind of survey to see what people you know are good at or you know have strengths I haven't personally a lot of people do I think with great success we recently had the table group come out and help provide an assessment a plug for them great working with them came out and did an assessment about what our perception is of the team versus kind of what the leadership thinks now we're working through ways at the core group level of how do we address the gaps that we see I think there's tremendous potential there and we have a lot to learn and we have a lot to learn yeah I'm the more and more I encounter people who are are heavily into to lean thinking they have a good sense of emotional intelligence do you agree that that has a big part to play here

yes yes definitely has there been a change order or a mishap in a project because that has not taken place that that cultural building at the beginning of the project has there been a a distinctive design element not not taken into account because of that sort of cultural piece not yeah fully developing yeah go ahead I think the number one thing I can't think of a very specific example to your question but what we're dealing with a lot is what is typically we're trying to change the perception of the team that construction documents or traditional construction documents that you submit for permit should be at a shop drawing level the shop drawing should be done when you submit for permit instead of submitting something for permit and then figuring out how you're actually going to build it which so we're consistently pushing the team to think of construction documents as

something much more much farther along than they're used to and so when we have those breakdowns it's the team saying well this is what we're going to submit it's like well how do you know that the company can build it well I just hope we hire somebody that uses this service and that's somebody that uses this system it's like okay we'll stop let's figure out let's hire the company or let's go out and see what the options are let's bring somebody on for a pre-construction contract and so can set this this idea that people conceptually get that we don't want to have any change orders but because they're not used to bringing companies on so early and having the ability to get real-time feedback they don't instinctively use it so we've been very close a number of times to submitting something for permit that in a way we know we can't build

because it's not at a shop drawing level and I can see how that ties back to you know just the tradition of well this is not something that we're used to going and asking our our trade partner about because they're not hired yet I mean it's just one of those simple things that you just really haven't thought through the entire process and looked for the opportunity to to think through it all the way that's interesting so there is a direct impact it sounds like to to design to maybe even scope gap or things of that nature when it comes to culture yes definitely another corollary to that is I think a lot of times on the general contractor side they are able to write the instruction to bidders in a way that they can transfer all of the risk to one of the you know to the electrician so something may not be designed but they can

write their contract in a way where they give them all the risk and so we spend a lot of time coaching them through because the electrician is guaranteed their cost and it comes out of your collective contingency and if the contingency runs out it comes out of your profit you may want to work on the design more instead of just acknowledging that the design is not complete and trying to transfer that risk to somebody else and so you kind of see the light bulb go on every once in a while and say like oh if that's the case then we need to do x y and z and it's like yes go do it please oh that's awesome no yeah it's it's totally a flipped way of thinking about it but when when I can see that light bulb going on I mean I feel like it's

going on time and time again for me the more and more I hear but yeah I think that makes a whole lot of sense yeah it kind of surprises me but where we a major lesson learned is we just have to keep that pressure on and keep reminding people that the business deal is different that the the way things play out is different in this environment and then when you continually remind them then they start to make decisions differently and almost always it means oh we need to get them on or earlier that's almost always the answer yeah because you don't want to miss out on those those valuable insights that you could certainly have if you brought them in earlier yeah although one more lesson learned it is possible to over spend in pre-construction so we also have this idea everybody adds value let's put 50 people in

the room all the time let's have the parking lot striper in the in the room when we're talking about the structural steel system that we never did that but that's an example to prove the point that I think my lesson learned now is to be much more intentional about who's in the room and why they're in the room because we're paying for everybody's time there's no you know you're not getting free advice you're paying for it so be efficient so that you get what you want and you don't spend a lot of money there's a diminishing return on construction pre-construction spending so that was a hard lesson for me to learn but I have I'm learning it I mean for all the other owners out there who who are thinking about potentially using an ifo a agreement how would you compare from a from a cost perspective and and maybe there is no apples to apples assessment

right but how would you compare cost wise and the the two the results of of executing projects on say an ifo a versus a gmp agreement so it's very difficult to bench lie or to benchmark projects because the costs of construction especially in california and health care have gone up so much from over the last 15 years but what we can say is that before we were using ipd there was a major risk most big projects that we did would have some type of budget overrun and some type of schedule overrun now i'm saying that very nicely since we've been using ipd on our large capital project so large being say over 100 million dollars in project value we've delivered 1.5 billion dollars worth of work on time and on budget so that means within the budget and the schedule that were that were set when the board approved the project and we have 3.5 billion dollars worth of hospital work

under construction that's tracking on time and on budget so like we we say at this point the first 10 years of this journey has been to just get reliable just stabilize the system and do what we say we're going to do the next 10 years is let's do it better let's do it faster and let's do it cheaper got it so what you're ultimately doing is increasing certainty lowering that risk on the project yes and a lot of people ask well how come we guarantee the cost and i think i have this experience everywhere i've worked that we generally never get anything for free at the end of the day as the owner we end up paying for the building so this is just a much more transparent open book we'll pay for the cost of the building if it meets our conditions of satisfaction then everyone

will get a profit and maybe additional profit and if it doesn't then no one's going to go out of business but nobody's going to walk away making a bunch of money if the project is late and over budget all right so then what would you recommend for for teams who want to start using ipd i would recommend subscribing to lean ipd.com shameless plug i would recommend going to lean construction.org there is a ton of information there there are some recently released case studies on ipd done by renee cheng at the university of minnesota which chronicles 10 projects dodge analytics recently released a survey on a whole series of projects that used lean you can reach out to me i'm happy to help there's a lot of people in the industry a lot of great consultants that are out really trying to help people get off the ground

does that work for starters yeah that's that's great and and i would second i would definitely second lean construction.org and in addition so that i am reaching out to dodge data analytics to get an interview with them so hopefully in the near future you guys will be hearing more detail about the data around the improved process based upon using integrated project delivery well let's let me ask you what's the best way to for people to get in contact with you so you can reach me at i'll give a personal email my at [email address removed] is a great way to reach me or on linkedin that's where i'm most active if you want to get a better idea of what we're talking about leanipd.com is under construction there's just a subscription page there now but if you subscribe we will let you know when the actual website launches and for subscribing

we'll share a copy of the contract the goal of this website is basically to provide resources to people who are new to ipd to make sure that your first project is successful because you can't fail on your first project or there'll never be a second one great great great thank you so much for doing this interview with me james you have definitely shed a lot of light on what it looks like to execute a project with utilizing an ifo a agreement and ipd so thank you very much for that and i really appreciate you taking out the time to do this britney thank you and keep up the excellent work ah this was a great interview i enjoyed myself and i hope you did too james is a great person to speak with and has lots of good nuggets for us to learn from if you are liking

these interviews please subscribe at constructor.com or itunes also great news we are also on stitcher for you non-apple phone users links to stitcher will be available on the constructor website shortly also if you'd like to suggest an interview go to the about the show tab at constructor.com and suggest an interview there also you can email me at britney at constructor.com we want this podcast to continuously be beneficial for the constructor audience but i need your help to do that so email me or suggest an interview i'm looking forward to talking with you guys next week bye for now