Transcript: How Blockchain Can Accelerate the Adoption of Integrated Project Delivery

Hello and welcome to the Constructor Podcast, the future of the built environment. I'm your host Brittany Campbell-Turner and this podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. We talk about fostering trusting relationships, help you to understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule, and most importantly, exceed your end user's desires. Welcome to this episode of the Constructor Podcast. Last episode, we discussed different views on leadership and how to be intentional in taking the lean message to the next level of practitioners.

If you haven't listened to that episode yet, check it out at constructor.com slash LCI 2019 recap. In this episode, we are end capping our recap of the 20th annual LCI Congress with a Lean Lab presentation where James Pease and I presented on the topic of how to increase adoption of the IPD model by using blockchain. If you haven't heard about James Pease yet, he actually was a guest on the 22nd episode of the Constructor Podcast. James is a regional manager of facility and property services with Sutter Health, an integrated health system in Northern California where they spend between $500 million and $700 million on their annual capital program.

James is an experienced practitioner of the IPD model, using it for over 11 years at Sutter Health. And a couple of years ago, James also developed an educational platform called leanipd.com. He's been sharing through webinars and blog posts different elements about how to be successful in running lean projects. He also participated in the development of an IPD guide that shares about how to carry out IPD projects. You can find that guide at leanipd.com.

In preparation of this presentation, James and I talked about how it's unquestionably the future to incorporate blockchain and smart contracts with construction contracting. In this presentation, we focus on integrated project delivery contracting, although blockchain can impact or streamline any contracting model, pending that algorithms are built correctly. James and I decided to focus on IPD specifically because of the similarities of transparency and contracting with both IPD and distributed ledger technology. Listen in. My name is James Pease.

I'm an owner's representative with Sutter Health. We're an integrated health system in Northern California. We spend between 500 and 700 million a year on average on our capital program. And we're going to talk theory, but not things that we're doing today, but something we'd like to explore as next steps to broaden our delivery model. I'm Brittany Campbell Turner.

I am an owner's rep. I work for Mace. I have been investigating lean and applying it for the past four years. I also have a podcast. It's called the Constructor Podcast, obviously grounded very much in lean behavior economics and how technology supports that process.

I've been interviewing experts about how to improve the built environment from all aspects, real estate, design, construction, and facilities management. I've been circling around the topic of blockchain and how that will improve the built environment. So blockchain has been very interesting to me, and I've been investigating that for the past year. So why are we here? We believe that there's a fundamental breakdown on big capital projects in the industry.

We're part of an owner's organization of owners that do, we're the smallest organization, so everybody spends at least five to seven hundred million a year. They all have the same issue. They get their projects late. They cost more than they thought they were going to cost, and they don't always get what they wanted. In some cases, they have to start building a building five years before they've even invented the project that they're going to manufacture in the building, right?

Because the technology cycle is so much faster than the build cycle. So there's data to support this. CII, there's over 900 projects with an average value of 65 million. Seventy percent of them were either over budget, behind schedule, or both. So just under 30 percent actually exceeded schedule and budget goals.

Owners that are building big capital projects today are not getting what they want out of the program. Obviously, the partners that we have are making money because they're still in business. So as owners, if we want to get different outcomes, we should change it. We should change what we're doing to get different outcomes. So we've had this experience within our company.

Projects under 100, under 50 million, we pretty reliably deliver those things. Once you get over 100, we're at least consistently over budget and behind schedule, right? That's predictable. So we've gone to an integrated project delivery model. We've done about three billion dollars worth of work basically on time and on budget with integrated project delivery.

We have two billion dollars that's pretty far in construction now that's tracking under budget. We put the design and construction team under a single contract with a shared risk and reward plan. We can typically get 75 percent of the contract value into that pool with maybe seven to ten players. So you don't need 50 companies in the pool. You can get the bulk of it.

And so believe very strongly that integrated project delivery is a valid solution, not the only solution. The opportunity here is to do a more collaborative approach, get everybody on board. Understanding that we've been moving from the traditional model, especially in the lean construction community, to one that's more shared risk, shared reward, more transparent collaborative approach. There's also something that's happening in the financial space. I'm sure a lot of you have probably heard about Bitcoin.

We're making progress towards improving the transparency model within contracting with the IFOA, for instance. Obviously, we've seen this opportunity and as part of the lean community, we're figuring out how to shift from this siloed approach to one that's one that has the shared risk, shared reward model. Similarly, in the blockchain space, there's something that's taking place within the traditional models like finances. The idea of cryptocurrency is blockchain networking. Let me explain what blockchain is, a sort of baseline for everyone.

Blockchain is a distributed ledger. It essentially is a ledger that people can write to or they can verify what is actually transacted on the ledger itself. It cannot be changed, so it's immutable. The record stays the same. And in order for the verification to take place, there must be some sort of consensus of the people on the network.

So that's essentially what blockchain is. It can help sort of flatten the supply chain. It allows for information to, for instance, from bidders coming in. This is just an idea, coming in. That information could go straight to the owner and it could be understood broadly by everyone who is participating in the project.

That could be your architects, that could be your GCs. It could be your municipality, for instance. They could understand what that looks like when that information has been verified by people so that everybody has a level of understanding what the scope is and why. I must say it's been taking me 12 months to do the research and I'm still learning things today. But it's an opportunity again to take what's typically siloed and basically make it more transparent and have a shared network.

So lots of applications working as an owner's rep. I see the solution within construction, specifically with the IPD model. The thing that's most interesting to me is the smart contract capability. Basically, transactions can take place on a blockchain with conditions tied to them. For instance, if there is a light fixture that has Internet of Things tied to it and there's a smart contract with a supplier to replace any light fixtures, what the Internet of Things sensor can do is ping that supplier automatically as soon as it's out, tell them this is what we would fund you in order to replace the light.

That supplier comes out, replaces the light, and they get paid once the sensor says that it is in place and working. That automation can be tied right into it. So what we're looking at is moving from the traditional contracting capability first within construction, specifically based on the IPD model, and working in some of those smart contract integrations. So first of all, the preparation of an IPD contract in the first place, there are a number of things that need to be signed off by the entire team as it relates to the shared risk, shared reward terms during that validation study.

So each one of those steps can be a transaction whereby people are putting up the information and verifying those details. But in addition to that, it can tie into how payment processing is done. At the end of the validation phase, we have estimates from everybody. We kind of have to compile them. We use this really fancy database that you may have heard of called Excel a lot.

So formulas get messed up. We've had major invoices that just had formula errors. So is there a way we can build a shared database where everybody loads their cost information into that system, and then it gets rule checked so you can't actually load the information in if it doesn't meet the right rule criteria, so it doesn't have to be manually checked? When I asked our project engineers, they said on average they may send a subcontractor invoice back two or three times before they accept it and include it.

And that's on a monthly basis. So a three-year job, I mean, that's just a ton of non-value added energy. So can we set up a system where all the costs go in, they have to be rule based, and then everybody can see what all the costs are all the time. And so if I'm going to do a hundred million dollar project, can I put the hundred million into like an escrow account that's rule based with the blockchain so that the invoices when they get approved, everybody could actually get paid at the same time.

So do we have trade partners here? So thank you. I really appreciate you financing all of our work. So if you don't know, the typical trade contractor pays their people every week, but they only get to submit an invoice every month. If you're lucky, the owner pays in a week or two.

If you're unlucky, maybe three to four months you could get paid. I worked at a public owner and we paid 90 to 120 days. It was embarrassing. You can't ask for any favors when you pay 120 days. So then that gets paid back to the general contractor, gets divvied up, goes out to the trades, goes out to their suppliers.

So if you could put, say, a hundred million dollar project into a bucket and you could tokenize it in a way that each party's contract was represented within that bucket, the invoices came in, they got collectively approved by the team, and then everybody got paid directly. So you get rid of that tearing waterfall of the invoices going up and the money going back down. So you could get the money out to the people who are actually spending it faster and then eliminate a lot of the review time.

So on a hundred million dollar job, we might spend three to five hundred thousand dollars with an outside audit firm checking the numbers and stuff. So it's another huge opportunity. A built in quality concept. Can we get built in quality on the finances this way? It's a pay when paid so they don't pay the subs until they get paid, who then pay the suppliers.

So there's a lot of financing cost hidden in there that the owner's paying. There's a lot of overhead costs, which I can't see. How much did it cost to put that together? I can't see it. It's not organized that way.

So the concept of integrating the finances and running it on a completely transparent block chain could drive a lot of waste out of it. Can I implement it tomorrow? No, but I think it has a lot of promise. And if we could do it, then we could get IPD down for new owners for five million dollar, one million dollar projects. It would take a lot of the administrative burden out of it.

There's a built in quality concept. Can we get built in quality on the finances this way? Are you doing that for free? No, it's built into the cost of the job. Ultimately, the owner is paying for financing that system and they're paying for the administrative cost of packaging that invoice.

We're looking at ways to implement that idea into the IPD model. And the first step is setting up the contract itself. There are lots of steps in order to do that. There's validation study. There's a target value design, actually identifying what the pools of money are that go out to each trade.

But the biggest challenge to furthering our adoption is the finances are significantly more just the amount of financial work, the auditing and looking at the pay apps. So here's exhibit A. This is a pay app. How much do you think this pay app is for? Imagine a stack of paper the thickness of two encyclopedias.

It's two and a half million dollars. I mean, it's not actually that big a pay app. It's good size, but we're going to be receiving these for the next 24 months. Some theoretically what you could do if you did this. So I read a study somewhere that the administrative cost of putting that invoice together, reviewing it and approving it from all of the vendors, trade partners, lump sum bidders, packaging that is about one hundred thousand dollars in administrative cost per two and a half million of invoice amount.

So but there's no way to actually see that. You could never aggregate those costs out of that. What was spent on this project? It's a hundred million dollar project. We'll spend maybe three to four hundred thousand dollars on outside auditors because I can't review that whole thing.

So and that's still just to gut check it. So that's to compare the job cost report to the invoices and make sure we're paying for the right things. So as an owner with Target Value Design, we're trying to drive down the cost of our projects. What I've realized over the last 10 years is we got to focus on the waste that's not specific to the built environment. So we don't want cheaper metal studs or cheaper finishes.

But can we squeeze some of the administrative costs out of creating that every month, reviewing it every month, make sure we're paying for the right things, making sure that they're matching up and verified exactly with what the contract is outlining. It allows for you to eliminate the requirement to do the due diligence that's on the back end, because what it is is simply see by reviewing against the ledger that every single thing matches up line by line. That's magnanimously much more easy to audit pay applications or any type of process on the block chain.

So the thesis is essentially integrating IPD with block chain capability to support it will make it easier for you to even prepare the contract itself through the validation study. But in addition to that, it will improve the capability to make payments quicker, more in a more secure manner, one that is tied to real data and progress and essentially make make the cost lower and make everybody's lives easier. Through putting this presentation together, very actively thinking like we have to find a way to make this and I've been fighting with our auditors lately and so it's just all of it coming to a head.

There's got to be a better way. If you want to know more about anything block chain related in the built environment, I have probably about 12 months worth of podcast episodes talking with people about pilot projects, go to Constructor.com. And then if you want to know about the IPD guide, how to set up an IPD project, you can find it at LeanIPD.com. Any questions? What do you think?

Is this a website or software? Well, could you buy it? Right. So is that valuable to you? Oh yeah.

Cost of I just had an activity kind of sub and on the front end offered us $35,000 off the top if we just went ahead and mentioned cash flow. Yeah. Right now I'm in touch with developers who are building contracts on the blockchain in order to investigate this model. They're doing much more simple contracts like NDAs, for instance. But obviously this is a more complex solution, so it's going to take some time.

But honestly, we need funding. So that's where we are. It doesn't need to really be IPD. No, I agree. What I appreciate about the IPD model is that it's already a transparent approach.

Obviously anything can be mapped onto the blockchain. Maybe it's just become painfully apparent to us that as we're trying to drive costs down and they're just actually going up slower. And so what I'm starting to realize is we're not going to cut costs. We're not getting the productivity gains that we thought we would be able to get. So now it's like, let's go after all the money that we're spending that we're getting no value for and continue to pay for the stuff that we acknowledge we're getting value for.

But you got to make it visible to be able to see it. Subsilically financing trade partners, keep financing jobs, even through blockchain, because they're putting out labor and material for a period of time where they get reimbursed. Whether they're getting reimbursed for blockchain or they're big reimbursals from the blockchain. You make sure of it. But I think the only way you can make sure of certain things is unless you start paying the full worth they put in as they put it in.

I mean, you're going to start driving. Yeah. On our some of our larger jobs, we allow people to forecast, say, one to two weeks out. If you're, you know, if you're spending like five million a month as one trade contractor spending five million a month, they can't afford to get out too far. So we will allow it and then we reconcile it on a monthly basis back to.

And so the better companies, the better they can forecast. And we're not paying you ahead of time. By the time you are getting paid, you've done that forecasted work. Right. Does accounting get simpler or does that get more difficult?

It gets much simpler. I would hope so. I don't know if it could get more complicated. How would it work? You said with information for not transactional.

Like, yeah, it works with information. CR, fine. I think you could run like a clash detection system on there so you could keep a real time forever record of all the changes that were made within a model and who made them. That's some next level stuff, which a lot of people are investigating how BIM and blockchain integrate. I'm actually part of the construction blockchain consortium, and there's a whole group focused on how to get BIM and blockchain integrated.

But it's not until we're going to get to like level three, true actual design integration on one common data environment, till we get there. Another question, does it work with a lending institution? So you said you put money in escrow. Yep. So a large sum of money.

So you're expecting the owner, if you don't get lending institutions, they're not going to release the money, but the work is in place. So you're talking to the owner, we have to release the money upfront. Everybody has their own funding approach. You don't always have to put it into an escrow. Depends on how you distribute your funds.

It's a good question. I like it. It wouldn't get released until you've met the conditions of the contract. It would be held there and you can split the interest. Oh, no, I get it.

I mean, well, you have that money, you're doing something with it. It's either invested in bonds or something. We're getting it from a lending institution. If you're getting it from a lender. So a lender has it somewhere.

Because you get construction draws from your lender, right? So you need something like that. I think the integration with IoT and so there's so many different elements, right? So as it relates to construction, the first step is building it into the initial contract preparation so it can tie to those terms. So you mentioned that this type of paper is $250 million worth of invoices.

2.5. It's not even that much. Yeah. I just want to mention that in comparison a few days ago, somebody in the Bitcoin blockchain moved $250 million for only 10 cents. Yeah.

So that is as a fact. We don't have to talk. So I would rather pay 10 cents as an owner than 100 grand. But then we're not talking about like any cause, right? Right, right, right.

So that's what 10s or 100s of thousands of X institutions, right? Times more effective in moving money around. So I think a vision where you set up a smart contract where basically you set up the rules of how the data needs to be input and then everybody inputs their own cost data into that system. It'll auto-generate what the contract looks like, what the risk pool, what the splits are. It can be done in real time as people invoice for the job.

You can drive real time metrics and tracking out of it. And you can do that. I think it is significantly less cost with actual better data than we have now. Which system specifically? How did I get bought in?

How do you get the owner bought in on the drive party? So a couple things. I got bought in because I started my career at a hospital that did all lump sum work and I didn't even know there was another way. I didn't study construction. Then I went to this public owner.

We had to advertise in the paper like anybody could bid on the job. It was crazy. And we had a $4 million job with a $2 million claim. We were a year late and we value engineered out the whole third phase, which is not actually value engineering. You just cut the third phase out.

Then I went to design assist on a GMP basis and I've been at Sutter for 11 years. And so it's kind of a normal progression for me that when I got presented with, you know you could do it this way, it was like, that makes way more sense. So Sutter was already on board. So me personally. Because there's a lot of, I don't know, like what you hear is right.

You want to start this blockchain or integrated form or whatever. And there's a lot of, oh, well you got to pay, you got to pay the mechanical guy up front to do all this planning work and it's going to cost me more up front. That's always the pushback from one fleet. You want to pay up front or later? Right.

You pick. Go slow to go fast. That's all right. I'm just curious how on their side. So I can tell you.

So at Sutter we sell bonds a billion dollars at a time and then we split it out to the job. So we don't do individual project financing. So our last raise is a billion dollars at 4% for 40 years. It's pretty good money. Our company got there.

It was just Metrix that sold the C-suite. So we got kind of lucky. So it was a leap of faith. First three big jobs we did, probably collectively a billion dollars over budget. The best one was a year late and the worst one was like three to four years late.

So in some sense like how could it be any worse? Will Lichtig, who wrote the first IO-4A, was our construction counsel. So we already had an established relationship. We had some really forward looking executives that came to LCI. They met Greg Howell, Glenn Bower.

They ran a symposium in 2004. We tried IPD Lite. So we tried GMP with shared savings. Still didn't work. We went like 300 million over on the first one and more on the other one.

So every IPD job that we've done 22 now at an average of 3% under budget. The worst one was 3 million over budget on a 450 million dollar program. Yeah, we've gotten better. So for other owners, if you don't have a problem, then don't change. Because that's what I talk to owners all the time and they're like, well, we're fine.

Okay, then just keep doing what you're doing. That's our proposal. Yeah. We're looking for a seed funding and pilot use cases. From putting this presentation together, it's like we got to find a way to do this.

I think we have to. I mean, it's become painfully apparent to me in the last year how much money we're spending on non-value added. So it's like, how do we get the majority of the money into the physical building? Well, it only took us 20 years to get here. Thank you.

So you're not talking about approving it electronically, you're actually talking about it gets submitted, approved, and funded all electronically. I think that's possible and there are use cases for that now. Yeah, versus the programs now where if you want to get something approved, it goes through the hierarchy of sign-off electronically and then it still goes to someone in accounting who says, okay, this is different, we have to issue a PO. Yeah. And at the end of the day, I spot check that.

And then on a hundred million dollars, we might spend three to $500,000 in outside auditing to go back and spot check it. And they're still just spot checking it. So could we set up a system, a rule-based system that you couldn't put the data in if it wasn't correct? So can you error-proof the invoicing payment process so you don't overpay or underpay? And then you spend less money on the auditing process because guess what?

It's way easier to review how that has been done correctly. That spot check capability is so much faster. So then we could make the finances just completely transparent to everybody on the team. There are different governance structures that can be set up within blockchains. If you, for instance, are referencing Bitcoin, where people do Bitcoin mining, that's a public ledger, that's a public blockchain.

It would have to be a private blockchain that's internal to an owner represented organization, which then they push through their suppliers, their trade partners, the architect, everybody who's involved in that network. And essentially it was set up a governance structure that's similar to the IPD model. And whoever is going to be doing those transactions, they'll be built into that contract, the smart contract itself. And that consensus model will also be decided upon. So Bitcoin is 51% consensus.

There are Bitcoin miners that go and have the computer doing the mining. It doesn't have to take place that way. You can have your architect, you can have your owner's rep, you can have the foreman or whoever. You can have those people in place identified in order to do that consensus and verification process. So hopefully that gives you something to think about.

It doesn't exist, but I think it's coming quickly and there's a compelling cost driving that, I think. And all we have to do is make it more and more visual and then it will become more and more like, of course it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time. There is some fun dialogue after the presentation that James had with a couple of the audience members that in listening to them, I didn't want to leave this out. It's really a continuation of the discussion, but I'm planning on doing a series on this topic later this year.

So if you're a listener and would like to be a guest to discuss this further, I would love to feature you if you're interested. Listen in. Startup company in Huntsville, Alabama is trying to do something similar, but starting at the trade level. So they're kind of approaching it from the bottom up. I think bottom up has to be part of it because if their systems are not set up to feed into this, it's not going to work.

Everyone recognizes the administrative overhead waste. And obviously the trade contractors feel it most acutely. Yeah, I think so. But even design partners feel it pretty acutely too. I mean, it's a lot of work.

It's the hardest thing for me to train my people on. So I got a new project. I want to train a project manager to run it. I spend more time teaching them kind of the nuances of how to put the deal together. And then once you get that kind of done, it's relatively easy for them to live in.

But the thing about it, I mean, every project has its own system. Yeah. So when you're a contractor, you're having to adapt to every general contractor has their own system. Every owner has a different system. So we don't really even have as much of a system because we found any GC was going to do it twice.

We're going to do ours plus theirs. So we finally just whatever system you have, that's fine. And we have a very simplistic finance commitments and invoices type of a system. And we don't do any of the project management out of that. So we're not just the process of payment.

You know, yeah, very. So theoretically, you know, everyone's RFI logging system is different. Everyone's changed. Yeah, they are. Right.

Everybody's subcontract. Well, I'm running into challenges. So we have the auditors going through the trade partners books. And so half of the time, they're just disagreeing with the way they're doing their accounting. And I'm like, well, am I overpaying them?

Or you just you would do it differently? Because there's a big difference to me. Frankly, I don't care how they do their accounting. What I want to know is I'm paying for the work that I'm getting and I'm not paying too much or too little. Right.

So on one hand, traditional project delivery maybe simplifies that because you're not auditing. A lump sum is a simple way to do pay apps, right? It's a low. You're just agreeing on, all right, what's your percent complete? What's your progress level?

So you're auditing materials and labor commitments. So we stay away from IPD on most of the small jobs because of that. So we do a lot of lump sum work under a million, maybe we still do mostly GMP, but we're not auditing that kind of stuff. You know, it's always the cost. Yeah.

And the benefit is sometimes just like, what's the cost of it being a year late? I mean, that's, you know, yeah, it's like you don't see it necessarily in the physical cost of the job, but the impact of just the quality of the coordination that goes into the IPD model is priceless in a sense. The industry is so traditional. So something like blockchain, which is like this invisible technology, it's weird to people out. There's some way that you could make this system more transparent and faster and rule-based.

It would be way easier to. How many times on Vortex do we have all these different entities that have duplication of data that they're not even sharing? Yeah. And it's close, but not actually the same? That's the other problem.

In all that waste, you know, like you said, that stack up. I mean, that's just. So we also have, we have that the. Together an invoice that's, you know, the size of it. Yeah.

I mean, we can't even email the invoices on the bigger jobs. We have to upload them to a file sharing system because they're like a hundred megs and they're huge. All scanned. Not character recognized. Yeah.

If you have your, if you have, you're doing target value design and you've got your, you've got your project broken up into the different areas. And if you simply do an invoice on those areas rather than on all the minutiae. Yeah. And you were able to identify this is the, these are production metrics. Yeah.

And you just, yeah. I would love to code. We're tracking towards the target. We're good. We have no issues.

Any ones that you do pull aside. I think if you could get people that use the same cost code, so you could code things to admin, you could start to see like, what is the overhead all the way down to the supplier level that exists within these projects? And then you go and you try to reduce the overhead because that's, you don't want to reduce the profit. You don't want to reduce the, what your, the labor or the material that you're buying. So I'm like, what's the piece that I can squeeze out and not notice if I could find a better way to do it.

And it'd be that overhead piece somehow. And the administrative just burden of, I mean, the number one way to cut the overhead is make the project shorter. Exactly. I've been talking about that a lot too, because general conditions are kind of, they're necessary, but not so much value added. So they're kind of a necessary waste on project duration.

The shorter the job to what you're saying, you get the same physical building, but you spend less on management. So that's like the first layer you carve off, just make the project go faster. So I'm not paying for all that temporary overhead. That's building me on a monthly basis based on project management. If we could speed up our, so we're thinking now, if we can speed up the feasibility, board funding, validation, design phase, I think collectively we could take a year out of that on our bigger projects.

And so then you finish the job a year earlier. So that's like, everybody's getting raises in that last year and materials. So you can cut costs, just starting earlier and finishing earlier. But then there's a layer underneath all that that's still waste, it's necessary waste, but it's not value added. Shared data model though, a lot of that wastes out, right?

If you have everybody's aligned, those cost codes are aligned all the way down through the chain. And now everything is visible and a dashboard that's available. Because I wonder on a hundred million dollar job, what's my actual material cost for all the way through? Like what's, and we always say like 50, 50, but I don't think it's, it's probably significantly less, right? Percent?

20 million? I would say it probably depends on the type of facility, but. So the fact is there's no good way to find that out. It would be, you could do it on one job and it would be painstaking to do it, right? So it didn't seem like it would be that hard though.

I mean the data's there. The data's there, it's just a lot of work. It's not in a good searchable, accessible way. Yeah, what you're saying. If you liked this episode, find out more in the show notes at constructor.com slash IPD blockchain.

If you learned something valuable in this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues. You can also let me know you enjoyed our presentation by connecting with me on Twitter at Brittany underscore CT or find me on LinkedIn. You can email me at Brittany at constructor.com that's B R I T T A N I E at construct double R.com. Next week, you'll be hearing my discussion with Jordan cram, the CEO and Stola and Stola is a New York City based systems integrator that offers a data driven evidence based approach to capital project development.

We talk about data as an asset, manufacturing as a model, and how blockchain might drive behavior change. I look forward to sharing this episode with you next week. Don't forget, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do so at your favorite podcast player. I look forward to continuing the journey with you next week. you