Transcript: Disrupting Ourselves in the Built Environment: Shelterzoom

You have a lot of innovation in the portal search space. You have companies like Zillow, Trulia, realtor.com, Holmes, and you also have a lot of national brokerage firms like a Remax, Keller Williams, so many portals around. A lot of great innovation has gone in there, including even now some 3D virtual reality stuff. But as soon as you find your dream home, that's where the technology actually stops. And you can't really do any online offer.

You have to ring up your buyer agent or your listing agent and say, hey, I'm really interested to make an offer on this property. And then that whole manual process starts. Hello and welcome to the Constructor Podcast, The Best Way to Build It, episode number 85. I'm your host, Brittany Campbell-Turner, and this podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. We talk about fostering trusting relationships, helping to understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule, but most importantly exceed your end users desires.

Last week, we spoke a little bit about how we should be able to support our industry by working on it from within. Last week, we spoke with Chris Dorian, who is the CEO and founder at BuildSort. BuildSort is a blockchain technology that supports building a construction in order to improve supply chain, documentation, project management tracking and integration with BIM. Imagine if companies were able to sell their data back and forth with one another on a platform, it would reduce the amount of rework in the industry.

And that's essentially what BuildSort is providing. Chris, he has a background in engineering design and values the use of BIM, which we talk about quite a bit. If you haven't listened to this episode yet, check it out at constructor.com slash EP84. So we're continuing the discussion about disrupting through technology. And today we're speaking with Chao Shang Shoreland, CEO of ShelterZoom Corporation.

It's a blockchain based online offer solution in order to make offers for real estate online. It streamlines the process of making real estate offers, reducing paperwork and bringing greater openness and transparency about when offers have been made and the acceptance information. With that, let's get into the interview. So today we are speaking with Chao Shang Shoreland, CEO of ShelterZoom, an innovative real estate technology company. It is a blockchain based online offer solution and actually launched last year in November.

And what's awesome is they're based out of New York. So if you hear some trucks or anything driving by, that's really cool in this interview. It's in operation right now and it's significantly refines and streamlines the process of making real estate offers, reducing paperwork and bringing greater openness. So Chao is also a highly experienced enterprise architect and the founder of a pioneer enterprise architecture. She's also a road mapping and innovation as a service company.

She has architecturally led many complex and high value transformation programs, such as a program that delivered an end to end system for a US $40 billion joint venture between Conoco, Phillips and Origin Energy and several other major ERP transformation programs. One last thing before we get started, ShelterZoom actually got the best emerging technology award from the SIIA Cody Awards. So awesome news. And with that, let me go ahead and welcome you Chao. Welcome to the Constructor Podcast.

Thank you Brittany. Yeah, I'm so glad to be on the show. Yeah, I'm happy to have you as well. So I mentioned a little bit about your enterprise architecture experience, but tell us a little bit more about, how you were doing that and found yourself in software development specifically for ShelterZoom. Basically my whole career was involved in technology, but it's not just a technology, it's actually a very business focused technology.

So the whole enterprise architecture, really the main purpose and the main goal is to link the business outcome with the technology innovation. So that was really my background. And from there, I started my own company, a consulting company, and very much focusing on innovation and inventing good ideas and how to improve services in the architectural space. So from which I actually were very fortunate and met my current business partner, Alan, and who just happened to be in real estate. So we actually met and we talked all the issues we were really facing in real estate.

And myself being a very enthusiastic real estate investor and the years, and really noticed a lot of process issues and technology was quite behind. So after we actually spoke a couple of times and we decided really had something very interesting to talk about and to innovate. So that's how we really started the ShelterZoom idea. And the project itself, it's almost two years now, but we really only incorporate the ShelterZoom at the beginning of last year. So the company itself only existed for just over a year, but the project actually has been quite well.

I also find that you were one of the recipients of the Chief Executive Women Program. Could you tell me a little bit about that? You got that award, was it in 2014? How did that take place? So that was actually the time I was leading that major ERP transformation program for Orange Energy.

And we had a really large program and it was in the few hundred million to a billion dollar market really trying to utilize the new innovation SAP at the time to transform the largest utility oil gas company in Australia. And led a team of senior architects and then also driving the strategy of the company and then looking through all the business areas how we transform through technology. And because of the results of my work and also the years of leading one major programs like Philippa Orange Energy Joint Venture, which is a really major, major project for Orange.

They actually nominated me for Chief Executive Women Program and it was a program that recognized female leadership. And they put you through a whole year program and then meeting other female leaders from other industries. And it was very enlightening. And I learned a lot through this whole program. And so it was pretty much a very much honor to receive that and then to participate in a year long women program and really learn how to develop myself into a strong leader.

I find that we need more programs like that to not only recognize, but lead you through development. It's great to hear that you've gone through that process and that you were able to be one of the recipients. Yeah, I know it was very beneficial and really reshaped the way I look things as well and how I could achieve in my career and being a female. It sounds like that may have contributed to the trajectory that you're on, obviously other things too, your investment in real estate, but sounds like that led you to shelter zoom on some level.

Yeah, I believe so as well. So just for the audience to baseline, we've been talking about architecture. It is not architecture specific to design in construction, like for the built environment. It is enterprise architecture for software. So just wanted to baseline for the audience who are used to listening to us discuss about design for building.

That being said, Chow is an expert in enterprise architecture. I'd like to really dig into what shelter zoom does already and what's the deficit in the way things are done today with offers and then how shelter zoom fills the gap. Yeah, of course. So at the moment, if you look at the, in the mainstream market, buying and selling real estate, you have a lot of innovation in the portal search space. You have companies like Zillow, Trulia, reauto.com homes.

And you also have a lot of national brokerage firms like a reMAX, Keller Williams, so many portals around. A lot of great innovation has gone in there, including even now some 3D virtual reality stuff. But as soon as you find your dream home, that's where the technology actually stops and you can't really do any online offer. You have to ring up your buyer agent or your listing agent and say, hey, you know, I'm really interested to make an offer on this property. And then that whole manual process starts.

So basically everything's through manual form, manual emails, a lot of firms do use fax, which is quite surprising. I know. And so, you know, for you to make an offer then later on to find out where your offer is and whether your agent has already spoken with the seller, you know, what's the seller's feedback, all these things is very manual. Once the acceptance happens, now there are certain software actually catering for e-closing, the closing and settlement process. So there are some players in that space as well.

And so really the whole, where is that if you look at the entire process from top to bottom, especially consumer facing offer is really absent. So Shouto Zun is really trying to fill that gap, but leveraging the existing brokerage agency, buyer agent listing agent model, and also uplift the whole industry and the transparency and security and efficiency and benefit real estate consumers and the real estate professionals. So that's what Shouto Zun does. What we want to see Shouto Zun is really the next generation real estate platform to simplify the offer and acceptance phase of a deal and making the purchase and the rental of properties more transparent, efficient, secure, and profitable for real estate professionals and consumers.

So we talked about the offer pretty extensively. Is the renter capability built in today, or is that something that is to come as part of the Shouto Zun platform? It's already available on the market. And the rental one is also the often acceptance phase. So basically once a tenant finds a rental property, he or she or a group of them can submit a rental offer and then go through the entire often acceptance process until the rental offer gets accepted and the contract gets produced.

Let me get a sense of how this can now support this gap. So we have the MLSs, we have these platforms that share which properties are in existence, but this enables the offer, whether it's for the rental or for the offer for the purchase. Could you share with us about what Shouto Zun enable? How does someone actually get to the point of being able to use it? Is it the brokerage firms or the real estate company?

Is it the consumer? How do all the parts and pieces fit, if you will? Our platform, if you look at the ecosystem, is really for everyone. Everyone in this whole real estate industry and also the consumers. To be able to get everyone participate, what we have built is a concept.

This product has a life in its own. So it will actually grow. It does not need us to constantly driving that. It will take off on its own. So to be able to achieve that, what we have come up is strategy.

What we call is like a widget strategy. So we build a widget. It's like a plugin. It's a very light footprint. And that plugin, that widget can go on any real estate website.

So people can install Shouto Zun product called OfferNow or RentNow. And those are the two platforms we have today. So once people actually install this widget, button actually will appear on every listing. For example, if you actually really like a home called 123 Main Street Manhattan, that OfferNow button, which is the Shouto Zun button, will appear right next to the house. And if a person seen this house being to open inspection or a person from overseas looks that house online and really loves it, they can just simply press the button OfferNow and submit a offer online.

So that is how easy it is for adoption. Once a person fills in the offer submission form, it can be either a buyer or a buyer agent. So once you actually fill the form and submit the offer, then the entire process starts. The offer gets generated by Ethereum Smart Contracts, which is one of the blockchain technology. And then through there, the buyer agent, the listing agent, then the seller gradually coming to the process.

So everyone will get involved. Then what is really remarkable about the platform using blockchain technology is that the transactions get recorded in real time and everyone actually sees it. For example, if you have four mobile phones, one belongs to buyer, one belongs to buyer agent, then another one listing agent, another one seller, and their mobile phone will simultaneously see who has viewed what. So you have a listing agent viewed offer. So the buyer, buyer agent all see that simultaneously that particular second something happened and the color actually changed, the listing agent viewed.

Then if a counter offer is made, then you also receive the other push notification as well, immediately gets alerted there's a counter offer. Then you basically go through the entire acceptance process in a very collaborative, interactive manner, because we also build in the chat. So immediate messaging between agent and the buyer or the agent and seller. So everything's interactive and collaborative. It's really very much more than the app.

Eventually the buyer and the seller signed the agreement, the signed offer, and so you have acceptance. Then once acceptance is done, you also can generate the off agreement or in some states it's actually contract. Then that can be taken to the legal professional to either execute the contract or some states agent can execute a contract. So that's how everything hand together. You can monitor all the tracking of the specific steps that are taking place.

And then you can even move it to the legal part of the transaction as well. Is that correct? Basically the last part is you generate the contract, but the execution of the contract, the closing part is actually sitting outside of the platform at the moment. We are trying to build up to stage. We can actually invite all the legal professional lenders and also like a title offices into the blockchain workflow as well.

So that's the next stage of work we are working on. Okay, that's helpful. So from what I understand, it sounds like what ShelterZoom may be able to do is sort of take down the walls of having to be in the location where the house is, like literally receiving those offers in an open house or something like that, or even you sitting and looking at your email, you can get real-time offers coming in and see all of them and see which one came first. From a real estate perspective, it seems like it would be really helpful to sort through the details.

And you don't have to get those offers from someone here just in the US or just in Beijing or wherever this ends up getting used. It kind of tears down those international barriers. Yes, spot on. From what you said, I probably can summarize the three major benefits of using ShelterZoom. So as a agent, at the moment, a lot of times you have to tie with the office and this platform really free you up.

And you can be anywhere. You can be somewhere in maybe Costa Rica having holiday or you're in Europe and instantly you will get a message telling you our office has been placed on the house. So you can actually go in and have a look. You can be using just one mobile device and on the run all the time and having to require a few suitcase full of paper carrying around and now everything on one mobile phone because you can see every offer in detail and the purchases, financial situation, their offer terms and conditions.

And then also you can actually generate the contract on the go as well, which is remarkable in terms of efficiency and freeing up people from really low value admin kind of work now to very much a business focus, outcome focused business app. Then the other one is now you can get in buyers from all over the place. You do not need to constrain your buy base in your town or in your state. You really can have a big fish net and having a lot of buyers coming to you and you as an agent can really get a lot of offers which is far more than what you used to get.

So that's another big benefit of that. And then in terms of the sequence, which is actually really important for MLS is MLS quite often getting to dispute which one actually submitted offer first and whether the listing agent actually bringing their own client first or buyer agent bringing their client first. With this app, there's no dispute anymore because everything is recorded in real time. You can see which offer comes in first and whether anything has been played fairly or not. So it's the app for everyone to play fair in this space.

So it really uplifted the transparency and the integrity of the industry. It sounds like in addition to that, there's a standardized approach here versus having many different offers coming in many different ways. This can be one way whereby they're all reviewed and assessed and it's transparent for everyone to see. Yeah, standardization is really one of our major contribution back to this industry. Because if you look at the industry now and everyone's still building their own software products, what the real estate industry is lacking is standardization.

If you look at like a banking, finance, oil, gas, insurance, other really large industries and also very mature industries. And those companies years ago, that has already moved away from building their own kind of approach. They actually use a software provider. So it's very much a consumption-based approach. So they host on Amazon, host on Google and it cut the cost down.

Companies can build the best software and yet you actually benefit all the innovation in a very cost-effective manner. But the real estate is opposite. Everyone's spent millions, millions of dollars or even hundreds of millions building some software and this can be only used by themselves. And there's no integration, no standardization across the industry. So what we're really trying to do is we want to be the one to provide a consumption model, a standardized model.

So everyone can just install our button and then install our app. They can use exactly the same way. So it doesn't matter whether you come through a RE-MAX website or you come through another brokerage website. Doesn't matter in the United States or in Australia or in Europe and everyone has exactly the same use experience and has the same process. And then at the end of the day, everyone enjoy the consistency across the insights, the data and analytics and can be actually done through the platform as well and the people actually benefit from that.

Can you share with me your thoughts on the potential for shelter Zoom to be utilized by non-residential real estate brokerage? Is that something that you're looking at or that even commercial real estate brokers are looking at right now? Are you getting traction from that perspective? Yeah, we actually do. And we have a couple of commercial real estate like a brokerage firms in the process of discussing with us at the moment to utilize our platform.

And also recently we had a quite interesting interview from the commercial executives. So they asked us a lot of questions about why we use blockchain, how we see blockchain can help the commercial real estate innovate. So I through that interview provided a lot of my own thoughts. And I think there's no real difference between commercial and residential. And at the end of the day, it's still the same process people have to go through.

You may have different documentations or forms you have to go through different checks. At the end of the day, the nutshell, the backbone is all the same. Then another interesting thing about commercial real estate, because it's so high value, it's even more important for people to have a very secure platform to make sure whatever the buyer actually submitted and whatever the negotiation going on is really secure, no one else can see. So this is the beauty of blockchain. That our platform is only people involved in that deal can actually see what's going on.

So each party requires a private key. It's almost like a bank safe, open it up to see what's inside. Even shelters in ourselves, we can't really see anything. So we won't be able to even tell what are the terms inside of that deal, even which house actually is now on offer. And that is how secure blockchain is.

So that keeps us very honest as well, because means we don't have any ability to mine people's data. And we're not in that business anyway. We're not interested in really seeing what's going on inside. And we really respect our users privacy. So users can really enjoy having this secure environment.

Doesn't matter for commercial or residential, but I just think commercial, that's probably even more significant to those deals. It's incredible that as an application, that is blockchain for the real estate industry that is in use. Because of that, I'm gonna ask two questions about how can someone take advantage of an opportunity to either be a consultant or a partner with ShelterZoom and get affiliated, if you will, in order to use it, or any other way for that matter. And I guess I'll ask the second layered question, maybe even from the buyer side, how does one pay to use the services from ShelterZoom?

We have the very extensive affiliate network, and we're building more and more. So there are a lot of companies now becoming our affiliate to install our widget. And all what you need to do is just go to ShelterZoom.com and sign up as an affiliate. And once you sign up, we will give you the widget install code. Either you can actually install yourself, or you can ask us to help you.

So that's very straightforward. Then we are also in the process of discussing with a lot of industry partners, and they all could potentially become ShelterZoom partners. Maybe they have the mortgage business, or legal business, or tattoo office, and also even utility companies and movers. Any service related to real estate, they all can become our partners, because we are building an extensive marketplace, which we hope will be released by the beginning of next year. And then any buyer coming to our platform, hopefully will get very, very discounted service through our entire network.

So basically ShelterZoom will facilitate the marketplace on your behalf to procure you the best possible mortgage, or atony service, or even the utility moving service, or the title insurance. So we try to partner with a lot of industry players in those space, and then they all become ShelterZoom partner. Another channel we actually have is we are also establishing the referral consultant agreement. And what that means is it's almost like a reseller model, but we try not to use the name reseller, because there's a lot of legal complexity in that.

What a referral agreement means is a person or a company can become ShelterZoom, the local referral consultant. So for example, if ShelterZoom wants to enter a key market, say in Hong Kong, and we usually will partner with someone in that local area as a connection who has the expertise, who can actually educate the local realtors to use our platform. So we basically establish those referral consultant agreement with those people there. And then that's how we actually enter the key international market. So there's always a lot of opportunities for people to partner with us.

Then your other question about buyers. So buyers can come to our app. They can download the app to find out who actually are our affiliates. Then they can go to one of those websites to place off online. So they basically will have a rich source of properties to choose from.

So really at the moment, we almost have to close the hundreds of thousands of properties you can actually already put off online through our affiliate network, which is very significant. We will have more and more affiliates come on board. So eventually, hopefully next six months, we will really reach the number of properties, almost all properties in the US market and a lot of overseas market as well. So that's something we would like to achieve. So to kind of just really talk about some of the benefits, I mean, I know you hit on a lot already.

You talked about insurance, for instance, and you talked about maybe even the legal partner, for instance, a potential partner. How does ShelterZoom help with, for instance, maybe auditability? So auditability is another feature of the ShelterZoom platform. And at the moment, if you think about one agent receiving multiple offers from multiple buyers, it's very hard to audit which offer actually comes in first, what are the original terms, and then the seller usually won't be able to see all the information in front of them. With our platform, every offer comes in at all times stamped, even down to the point when the listing agent actually opened up the offer and when they invited the seller in to actually look the offer, everything really is auditable.

So another thing is the chat. For example, we enable people instantly chat to each other. So if a listing agent receive an instruction from the seller say, yeah, I'm happy to accept 650K offer and let's go ahead. But years later, if the seller change their mind, say, oh no, no, you sold too low, you know, I didn't really give you that instruction, they can actually go back to the platform and retrieve that information, say everything is recorded, which is a powerful tool to protect people and then also give them that auditability.

So one of the benefits that listing agent now is getting is they can actually list the property much easier with our platform. The reason being is they go out to compete the listing with other agents and then they show the seller, say this is the dashboard you will see when you sell through me because you will be able to see all the offers coming in and all the details of each offer and you can work with me very collaboratively to make decision. And the sellers love it because they previously never be able to see everything on one dashboard and then be able to go through all the details with the agent in such a collaborative manner.

In a way, benefits sellers and benefits listing agent giving them more business. So then coming to the buyer agent side, I explained earlier, now they can have many more buyers coming over the place, not just in one area and then they be able to get not just like the buyer leads, they actually getting the solid people making the offer, they are qualified, they are able and they're willing, they already wanting to buy the house. So it really gives them a lot of insight people are looking for and what are the buyers they now have on the book to work with.

So even say this deal falls through, they now have a buyer that they can work with for the next deal. So it's giving them a lot of benefits. So then on the buyer side, they now can very efficiently submit offer, try to secure offer as soon as possible and then also be able to track offer and see everything on dashboard. You mentioned qualifications for buyer. How does ensure that the buyer has met those qualifications when they're submitting the offer?

Yeah, so in our widget, when people submit offer, in our offer submission form, we ask buyer to upload the pre-qualification or pre-approval letter from the bank or they can upload the proof of funds bank statement then specify the loan status and the amount. So all those securely stored on blockchain so no one else can see it. They give them assurance. They can provide personal details yet be very secure. So that is our way of making sure people submitting offer are genuine and when the listing agent and seller actually reviewing the application, they know this person is already having the approval from the bank.

But having said that, it's not say mandatory and you can always have say like you want to put offer in now but you get the loan tomorrow, you can come back to upload the letter tomorrow. So we want to make sure people still have the efficiency and the agility. Okay, that makes sense. And then I'd imagine the same thing for a renter. Exactly.

You'd have the same ability to provide those pre-qualification, that documentation that's associated with that. Okay. For renter is actually even more for on details. So a lot of the reference can become your reference. What's your employment details and your bank situation.

So it's a lot of qualification questions building in the rent now platform. But having said all this, we do allow each affiliate to customize the widget. So if they want to ask more questions or they want to ask less questions, they can customize and tailor for their own requirement. That's awesome that they can do that because the requirements themselves will change based upon the market. Yeah, absolutely.

And also every country, every state can be different too. So a lot of very common similarities, but also a lot of differences. So we basically build a fully configurable solution so people can configure according to their own requirement. Is there any way to, we're just kind of thinking out of the box, to now track then what those requirements might be across the board so that there's an assessment that can be made for different markets and locations and things of that nature? Yeah, if you really thinking about conceptually, every state, whatever they asking for is all very similar.

The form looks different, the sequence is different, but all the questions down to the baseline is all the same. If the blockchain takes off, we really hope one day the whole United States all can be united, just have one form. That actually will make everyone's life so much easier. If there's no benefits whatsoever for every state to mandate or have to be this form, my member has to use this form. These very old methods when the technology was not advanced enough or when have this kind of self-governing technology around.

Now with blockchain, you can just use blockchain signature, which would be all like public key. You can go to anywhere in the world and people can actually go on the public ledger, identify yet there is a offering acceptance in place. There is a document in place, yet they can't see what's inside. They know if something has taken place. If you use that kind of powerful concept, there's no reason why all the states can't be united.

You just cut down all those overheads and a lot of unnecessary admin work and be united. And that to me is a real industry innovation. So hopefully, we'll see that happen next few years. So what's next on the roadmap for shelterism? Yeah, so we actually really looking at both business model and our process and also our technology.

And we just have so much on, next few months and the next whole year. And one of the things we really want to provide a buyer agent and the listing agent app. So they basically can become the initiator of offer at the moment of an app button very consumer facing. And we also recognize a lot of listing agents and buyer agents want to assist this process because sometimes the offer can be a little bit confusing and a lot of details have to fill. So we are developing those agent friendly app making them be able to really provide a very good service to their buyers.

So that's one of areas of innovation. And then also, if you look at blockchain, one of the drawbacks is really the speed, then also the cost. So the scalability can be an issue which explains why not many enterprise grade applications running on blockchain. So we are really tackle that problem head on and want to become one of the first companies to resolve this whole scalability issue by providing some very innovative technology innovation. Something we actually feel very proud of.

So that's another thing we are doing. And hopefully by the end of the summer, we will really on a very stable, very top notch platform and have no scalability issue. So we can actually really roll out rapidly across the globe. The other one I've mentioned already is the marketplace. So we are going to introduce the whole marketplace and a very fair and a very auditable and transparent marketplace and build on blockchain as well and to benefit all the consumers and also service providers.

So these are probably our immediate roadmap and there will be many more innovation coming your way next year. All of them are great plans and we're looking forward to seeing and hearing more about those later this year. Chow, I have to thank you. This has really been enlightening and it's great to hear about what ShelterZoom is able to offer and the innovation that is tied to it. Could you share with the audience how to learn more about you and get in touch with this ShelterZoom team and or follow you guys on social media to share with us what the best ways are to get in contact with you?

The main website, shelterzoom.com, but we also have several social media channels, very active on Twitter and Instagram and a little bit on Facebook as well. But we are going to start running several forums. One is the Telegram and another one, we have been actually running Reddit, but probably Reddit not quite sure whether we're going to continue running that or move that to Steam it because all the blockchain, cryptocurrency kind of companies fully utilize Steam it and Telegram and we also want to create a very active community in those spaces as well.

So we're really mobilizing the team at the moment to support our forums and discussions, providing very meaningful and useful content. And another one is I have been actually recently admitted by Forbes tech council, so which is a very prestigious. So I will be posting through Forbes and hopefully your listeners can follow me. I will share some insights. I see the industry can move forward and some lessons learned and also some very strategic discussion about industry.

The main thing is if you are really a company or technology provider or even aggregator, you're very welcome to sign up with ShelterZoom to become our affiliate. Well, that's wonderful. So what I will do is take all the social media outlets and all the mediums and go ahead and post that in the show notes. With that, thank you so much, Chow. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I enjoyed it too. Thanks again. To learn more about Chow Shang Shoreland and ShelterZoom, check it out in the show notes at constructor.com slash ep85. If you learned something valuable in this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues.

You can also let me know if you enjoyed our discussion by connecting with me on Twitter at Brittany underscore CT or find me on LinkedIn, or you can just email me too at Brittany at constructor.com. That's B-R-I-T-T-A-N-I-E at construct double R dot com. Next week, we'll be speaking with Bassem Hamdi, CEO and co-founder at Bricks Chain. He has 19 years of construction tech experience and says that 95% of project data gets lost. The complexity of budgeting, planning, and managing a construction project leave major gaps in recording transactions in a permanent and coordinated manner.

He is passionate in providing owners with more information about their built assets, increasing value in the long-term for resale, providing key information about operations and maintenance. So taking project info is an easy transition into managing your real estate assets. I look forward to sharing this interview with you next week. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, you can do so at your preferred podcast player. Leave a review to show you support and let me know you're enjoying the podcast.

I look forward to talking with you next week.