Transcript: AEC Hackathon - Removing Organizational Bias to Solve the Monday Problem

Collaboration is not bad. It's not a sign of weakness asking someone, Hey, can you help here? Can you provide some value? Another thing it requires is that you actually share all the data. One woman shared that, you know, she had been in the industry for years.

And this was her first chance to actually sit down with GC and the structural engineer and other people that are in the process and just have open dialogue. Anyone can be the proud parent and talk about how great their kid is. But when other people bring up the value that they find in something, that's what resonates. And the way that the hackathon is crowd wise is the way that the industry needs to go. When people come in, there is no affiliation.

Like we don't say what company, we are just you. And it's the value you bring to the team. And it doesn't matter if you're 14 or you're 90, if you're black, white, yellow, green, it doesn't matter male, female. And so I think that's the thing that's awesome is that it's people of multiple different generations, multiple different races, backgrounds and all of that stuff. And everyone else is respecting everyone else's opinion.

I think that's that shift that the industry needs to be because I'm tired of seeing people of any age that are put off by the people who embrace technology. Or they say, I don't understand where the young people are, so I'm not going to hang out with them. Or I don't understand where the old people are and I'm not going to hang out with them. I think breaking down all of those walls to where it's just like, you know what? You're a good human.

I'm good human. We care about this. We want to solve that. Let's go for it. Hello and welcome to the Constructor Podcast, The Best Way to Build It, episode number 62.

I'm your host, Brittany Campbell Turner, and this podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. We talk about fostering trusting relationships, help you to understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule, and most importantly, exceed your end user's desires. Last week, we spoke with Michael Lake, president and CEO of Leading Cities. We cover some of the major challenges we face in cities and how that affects the AEC industry. We discuss the solutions to these problems in the form of ecosystems, including sociological, economical and environmental ecosystems.

We cover how introducing the use of blockchain in the AECO industry can help smart city initiatives, as well as some of the easy steps to work with startup companies to introduce relevant ideas that can be taken on with governments to move smart city agendas forward. So if you haven't listened to that episode yet, check it out at constructor.com slash EP 61. Today, we're speaking with Damon Hernandez, founder and executive director of the AEC hackathon. Damon speaks about tearing down the walls disguised as generational gender and ethnic biases and coming together to elevate the industry by addressing frustrations, utilizing shared platforms and developing software hacks.

This can be done all by combining industry professionals, software developers and government agencies over a weekend to create software solutions that can solve the Monday problem. Let's get into the interview. We are interviewing Damon Hernandez, founder and executive director of the AEC hackathon. He works in many areas of the web 3D industry and has been active in virtual environments and the 3D web for over a decade. He's actively involved with the 3D web convergence with other technologies, including IOT GIS, CAD, BIM, CAM, augmented and virtual reality is currently at Samsung Research America, making the web browsing experience awesome and enhanced with web VR.

So Damon, welcome to the constructor podcast. Thank you very much for having me. I know you most for you being the founder of the AEC hackathon. You've had 30 events, 18 cities, probably over 30 events now, three continents, and you've involved almost 100 firms. I think you've definitely had a good success record.

But for those in the audience who don't know what an AEC hackathon is, could you give us a high level overview of what that is? At a high level, the AEC hackathon, it's grown into a community, but it's really about a weekend where people come together with the idea to collaborate and solve Monday problem to the built environment profession. That's really at the core. What it's about and why I got started. From what I understand, when we spoke last, it sounded like the goal was to solve that Monday morning problem that you were dealing with all of last week.

How did you really start? What did the first hackathon look like? Tell us a little bit about how it's grown. It really got started from the need I saw where you had people that were coming into the built environment profession from a newer generation that grew up around technology, wanted to use technology, and was running into a more traditional mindset. Then I would watch these people want to innovate.

They didn't have time to because of project schedule restrictions and budgets and a variety of different things. So it was really about, you know, how do I allow people to come and get their geek on because I was fortunate to have that liberty at the residential construction firm that I'm a part of. And I thought that was just kind of the norm coming from a tech background. And so kind of identifying two parts, it was seeing the very tech savvy, interested person from the built environment professions that wanted a chance to go get their geek on.

And then also technologists who said, you know, I care about this industry that impacts everyone that lives or works in a house or building. And so being more in the mindset of if I don't like something, either change it, don't complain about it. I decided, hey, why not have a hackathon? And, you know, my colleague who is actually a builder said, you know, it sounds like a good idea. And then I ran it around and slowly I found a group of individuals that are definitely thought leaders in their perspective industries.

And I said, I really love your help to do this. Everyone came together and great outreach and network. And the first event, it was awesome. It was humbling. I mean, I expected, you know, maybe 10, 20 people.

I run meetups here in San Francisco where I'm based. Any time you run a new meetup, you usually get about 10 or 20 people at most. And there were 130 people at the first one from all around the world. And then to hear some of the stories of how people got there was amazing. And that's where it was different for me from a technology background, again, coming from many different hackathons where you just kind of have coders and they go in and, you know, spend the weekend to build something cool.

This was more about, you know, people who are passionate about change in an industry and not just there to kind of push themselves, but really push the needle of innovation forward. And that's why it's been so successful is because it's really about nothing that I could say I can take credit for at all. It's really just about the great folks from the community that come and say, you know what, I care about the industry. I see how I could make an app or a piece of hardware or software solves this issue.

And then what's been really great is to see the way that kind of taking from the open source type mentality that I think the tech community is really exposed to people. They share that so they don't just create something that's going to give them the competitive advantage. They've really opened that up. This is a better hammer, so to speak. I want everyone to be able to benefit from it.

And I think we're at a really exciting time now in this industry. I think the mentality is there are people who really want to make a change and disrupt the industry. And I think just giving people the opportunity, a safe space to do that is so essential. Yeah. And you're absolutely correct.

You know, I think as we get older, we lose that ability to fail, especially in work. You can't do that. But iteration and especially when it comes to improving systems is about iteration and failure and versions. So definitely to provide people that opportunity to explore and fail. And then some of the most interesting hacks are ones where they said, hey, you know, we just spent the entire Saturday trying to get this one thing to work.

And then at all. And then at 10 30 p.m., when the judging is the very next day, we came up with this whole different idea and we worked overnight at what we built. Failure, I think, is another one of those key things that's great about the event, is that it makes it safe to do that, but still kind of related to your profession context. So you mentioned open source. I wanted to ask how some applications may be getting shared as you do one hackathon in one area to another hackathon and maybe another area.

How does that happen? You know, really, right now, I'll take full responsibility for this. Not as well as it should. We have resources through the Web site to people's GitHub and then word of mouth. I'm usually at most of the hackathons.

I think there's every one, but maybe three that I've attended. And so, you know, if I see someone that is working on something or right now it's just me saying, oh, hey, you know, check this out or this group here, solve that. So contact this person. But going forward, definitely having better resources for folks online. And I think the other part of that where I don't know what would be the best place for this.

I'm not saying it's the hackathon website, but if that's where it needs to be for now, but I'd love to see what is the GitHub that's building industry friendly? Where's the place to where if I'm saying, oh, I want to try to build this type of application to improve concrete estimation or whatever it is, that there's a site that I can go to where there's a bunch of open source projects that are construction focused. That may exist. You know, I haven't, I haven't looked for one, but since I haven't heard about it either, they marketing couldn't be too good.

So that would be nice. It's a great opportunity and I'm going to plug you. Anyone who's listening, who has an idea for Damon, feel free to reach out. I'm sure the contact information will be in the show notes. This is something that we need to make sure it takes place so that everybody can get the benefit out of what we're learning at some of these hackathons.

Yeah. And to that, thank you for that shout out. I'm open to all ideas. As I tell people, if you come up with an idea, you become the captain of that ship. So just, you know, be ready for the responsibility that comes with it.

That's right. I understand that governments are getting involved with hackathons. Tell us a little bit about what the interest level is and what they're thinking about when they get involved. Sure. Well, I mean, from, again, you know, just the events that we've had, I think that's the cool thing about it.

And as I said earlier, right, it relates to anyone that's in a house or building. And the governments that we've seen, like the UK, Finland, mainly it's more international. I think that's the thing that's been interesting for me to see is, you know, as these events, all community initiated, pop up all around the world, at what level do their governments get involved? For example, in the UK, they sponsor almost all of that hackathon. And what was been really interesting is to see over the different years that they've done it, how they'll bring in different departments that propose challenges to something like other cross rail system or smart infrastructure or something like this.

And then it's not about an individual anymore or a certain trade saying, I'm solving this problem that I have. It's a city coming in and saying, here's a challenge that we have. How would you solve this? And since these are people who build those infrastructure projects, they can look at technology and see other ways that aren't theoretical, right? It's not a technologist coming and saying, well, this is how I think I'd solve this problem.

It's someone who actually does that. It says this is how we've solved the problem or this is how to do this. And then it's been interesting to see how in different places those governments will either pilot those hacks, people that have time to develop them, because that is another reality that people who haven't been to a hackathon have to understand is it's called a hackathon and not a product buildathon for a reason. Right. You know, there's only so much you can do in 40 hours.

But then to give those people to take that further, test it out, polish it. And then if it does solve the need and hit the requirements of that agency or that department, then they say, well, here's funding. Right. And not saying that if you come to a hackathon, you know, and you build a project, you're going to get funded. That's not it at all.

But it's nice to see that they have that. And that was kind of some of the things that was interesting to learn about the cities that got involved here. And some of the things that I've taken away, seeing that the governments get as far as value is that one gives them the opportunity to look and see what's the most innovative that maybe they should support. Where is the industry? Because that's not their rabbit hole.

But if they can come to a weekend long event, see these speakers that are talking about the way that they're using innovative technologies, because that's what our presenters do. We have our presenters come from the industry usually and share, hey, we're using drones, but it's not a commercial. We're using drones. It's like, let me tell you where drones work, where they don't work, the problems you're going to have, the challenges and then hoping that in their sharing of how they're being an early adopter, how that can go back to people working on these challenges.

And so the government officials can see what the industry is pushing forward. And then that at least gives them the flexibility and the knowledge to say, well, maybe do we mandate something or maybe do we push and enforce something? So that's definitely a value added for them. The other, again, as I said, is everyone now is trying to be the next, I don't want to say Silicon Valley, but that idea of like entrepreneurialism and go and do a startup and that kind of thing. And in some of these countries where their startup culture is much different than here in the U.S., it's easier avenue for them because in some places where maybe they are more risk adverse, they're not just going to throw money to some people that have a clever idea.

It's already identified a market need and a market. So it makes everyone feel more comfortable. You know, it's just been really interesting to observe the way that, again, governments get value out of it and it's ever evolving. Absolutely. And I find that there is a trend that absolutely happening with the smart cities movement that's taking place.

We've talked with TAM forums, Carl Pivo, who developed the smart city manifesto and leading cities who are bridging the gap between startup companies and public agencies to find solutions. I think that the desire for this to happen more often is a great sign. Certainly, especially from the governmental level, especially talking with both Carl and Mike Lake, both of them talk about leveraging platforms. And if you think about platforms in the sense of software and then data within that server or cloud based storage. Right.

If you think about it, I would say that as an industry, we're learning how to do this, but we can do a much better job. But just from your experience and what you've been seeing at hackathons, how do you think we can do a better job of leveraging platforms? I would say that it really is about the platforms that we're using need to be able to communicate with one another. I mean, that's why I'm such a big advocate for the web as a delivery platform in one sense, is because anything that I build web application wise, someone can use a web browser and see that, see this and it opens it up.

It breaks down the walls of proprietary gardens. And I think that's the thing that I'm seeing where smart cities can learn more from that approach. I want to see the worldwide web really include more of the world. If I'm managing a city and I have to have 30 different applications to control different parts of that city, it just doesn't make sense. So I think when it comes to platforms, the web is going to be the platform that will really allow for smart cities to scale.

Because if you step down from that, right, what is a smart city? A smart city is the infrastructure. It's not just isolated. It's not just about what is the city provide. It's about the data that's coming from the buildings that the building owner provides and all these other interested folks that are a part of that built environment.

And the only thing that I think that has the scalability and has proven that it works as a platform is the web and being able to both access that data and for controls more than open source. You know, it really is. I think is definitely not everything can be open source. But platform wise, I think one definitely has to support the existing standards that are out there. I think that's another thing is that the people who care about standards, they've been in the game for too long and familiarity breeds contempt.

So when everyone agrees to a standard, then you have everyone who huffs and puffs and talks about why they don't want to use that standard. And I think that's the other issue is, you know, just folks need to swallow their pride and say, hey, here's a standard. Here's technologies that are built on open standards. Let's work with this. So the web in general.

So what does that mean? Cloud? I mean, I guess I'm trying to think through an application, right? If I'm going to work with, say, the city of Chicago, for instance, you know, like, what does that mean to them? Is that open APIs then so that we can have everything talk to each other that they're already utilizing?

Is that what you're suggesting then? I think the thing is, is that you need to have the ability to have everything talk to everything, but behind the permissions of security or what are you allowed to? So the web means that, yes, if you have the permissions by that city to access that data, it should be relatively simple for you to be able to access that. And that is how APIs and other things work. And that it does kind of become way of just connecting everything.

But again, permissions based. So when I say web and I say open, I don't mean just open to everyone and anyone, but not that it's, you know, I have to go and learn your specific communication channel to access your data or where the data is. And that's where I think one's going to see the issues arise because what happens if one city in a state decides to go for a proprietary platform to manage their smart city solution, and then every other city does that same thing.

As long as those APIs allow for communication, then that's great. But usually that's not the case. A lot of these business models for people are, is I keep you in my platform. If you use my platform to access your smart city, that's where I cha-ching. That's where I make money.

What I think the web allows for is the web allows for people to, yes, build services on top of it, find ways to monetize it. But at the end of the day, it's not my data locked up in your proprietary black box. You're adding a layer of value and efficiency on top of my city data. And then allowing it to be the web opens it up to the largest number of developers out there. You know, I'd be hard pressed for someone to tell me of a sector technology that has more developers for it than the web.

No, I think that lays it out as to the way it can be linked and also maintain the security level that a city or any organization who wants to share their data in a way that's more efficient when obviously trying to just keep the information secure. Yeah. And then it leverages all the advancements of the web as well. We have more data than we've ever had before. We talked a little bit about that in the last podcast with Michael Lake.

He mentioned that all the data we had before 2015 and 2016, all the data that we have documented was the same amount of data that was produced in 2015 and 2016, those two years alone. And in 2017, we had that data, the same 2015, 2016 data documented in 2017 alone. To think about that, that's crazy. I mean, it's a huge amount of data that we're collecting, but I think that we don't understand what to do with it. My question to you is how do you think we should effectively use our data that we have to make better decisions?

What do you see in the construction industry? I mean, we have so much with what we're keeping in our BIM models. We have so much in reports and the different softwares that we have and that we're keeping in said platforms. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

I mean, that's a great point. You know, all the data that's being collected, you know, as far as from the industry perspective, you know, I think it's going to bring about more folks that are focused on AI and machine learning applications that can help the people in the process understand the data, but then also ask better questions from the data. Cause that's the thing, if you don't know what data you have access to, then it's hard to form a question, right? So I think that in the industry, there are going to be more companies that are going to be looking at that.

With that said, what I think is interesting is some of the companies that are coming from the technology background and since they're involved owning buildings, they're going further down the building process. You know, folks like we work and you look at, they bought Field Lens and Case and, and look at what those companies did. And, and so I think as you have more of the tech industry that comes into this as well, as they provide better data, that it may not come from the traditional AEC folks, this data that's being generated comes from that side, but how that data is interpreted and more meaningful questions and answers coming out of that data may be by the owner because the owner is some super tech company.

Who do you think better understands the process? Google or the firms build buildings for Google, even though Google asks for like all of that information, right? I would put my money on Google's going to come up with technology that's going to understand how to maximize the data that's being generated by the building industry before those companies will, because they're going to want to look at it to find efficiencies. So I think that as we drowned in data, there's a lot of opportunity there, especially for these companies that, you know, I mean, being here in San Francisco, right.

I'm surrounded by folks that have made a widget that's looking for a business. And I think that people that do focus on AI and these other things, I'd love to see some of them getting more involved with the industry or someone that's already ideally in the industry that starts seeing how, you know, AI can be applied this way. Yeah, I think it goes both directions. It's understanding what you have and then taking the technology in order to analyze it and really understand what you have and how it can be used and move forward from there.

I like the idea of utilizing AI and machine learning particularly. I've even been at hackathons where someone says, you know, hey, I've got this model and I'd like to, you know, put some information with it and kind of a big size file for what it was. They didn't generate the model. They were using another model and it wasn't until, you know, you actually dropped that 3D model that would work in a 3D modeling tool into a text editor. And it was like, well, no, actually you have more than just points and vertices here, right.

You have other metadata in this model and they didn't even know that. Right. So even in just the, hey, I've got databases worth of data that I need to understand. You know, sometimes you just need to know what data you do have as well. There's a lot of great opportunity there.

Yeah. And the other thing I really liked that you said was, you know, the companies that we're building for, for instance, Google, as you said, as an example, I think there's a lot of opportunity to learn from other industries. Something that I've been digging into lately that I briefly mentioned to you is a blockchain. There's a huge opportunity with the utilization of blockchain because of the information that can be tracked. We know that it's accurate, but I wanted to understand a little bit more about what your thoughts might be on how blockchain could be implemented into the industry and some of the benefits.

Something that I don't spend too much time with, but looking at it and understanding it, I mean, I think it's key to create any form of an open, decentralized database of building data. And so that idea is spot on. As you said, right? Blockchain, I see, creates a level of accountability, one, and then trust on the data that's coming through, right? I always hear people talk about, you know, like the Holy grail is a single source of truth.

I want to pull from data that's sitting in one spot, updated in real time. It always reminds me of like a GitHub repo, but you know, I want to be able to access the latest, a single source of truth. I can use that. It's the most relevant data. Everyone that's touched it and just that transparency, that is a technology that does offer that.

How it gets brought into that this year is going to be a really exciting year to see that there are certain buzzwords that I think just fall into the AEC industry. And at the different hackathons, I definitely hear people will bring them up more, do something. So for me, I think that things like blockchain are a key component in what I hear people talk about, especially the different levels of BIM, for example, like BIM level four. That's very important. Oh yeah, absolutely.

And again, learning from other industries like fintech, we can watch and we can start taking some steps to understand it better. And then there's the security aspect. I mean, obviously that's something that I see the value in blockchain for as well. There's the cryptography. Speaking of security, I know that you have a passion for that and that some of the work that you're focused on at Samsung Research America, but I wanted to kind of further discussion on data and maybe the misuse, right?

So what would you recommend to mitigate data misuse or getting it into the hands of the wrong people? In one part, and this is kind of why my focus, you know, coming into the industry was really about how do we get the data displayed to people? And that's where a lot of it has been and more on the 3D side attached to the 2D and interactive 3D. It wasn't until really it was about, well, not everyone needs to see the data or what happens to the guy who still has access to the service that people are using online, the new tool, that they don't know how to go and kick him off.

But we laid him off and now this disgruntled employee has access to the whole projects. So when it comes to securities, I'm sure there are firms probably having someone that just really is about policing the data. Hopefully, right, you know, going through and making sure that if on this project we're using this new tool that's like Facebook, but for the building industry, right, that if this person's no longer on the project, they no longer have access. So when it comes to mitigating, you know, your data security, it's really about the biggest weak link is really about people's oversight.

And then like myself, I had mad naivete that when I'm saying, yeah, you know, show this 3D building, you know, how can we show every nut, bolt and beam in a smart way, not loaded all at once, but someone wants to see it. They could see it on a tablet or in VR and AR or whatever. And then realizing there are people out there that if they have access to that data, that's how they could rob a bank. A lot of terrorist attack. And that was, I got the cold water in the face when actually at one of our hackathons, we had someone who spoke about security and his whole presentation.

That really changed a lot of my focus. And then definitely looking at the way that I hear people talk about smart city. And especially when they talk about the way that IOT is connected to smart cities. The biggest issue right now is those securities and the trustedness of that hardware and that access point from a hardware to control level. But then also when it just comes to the representation of 3D data, there needs to be more around that.

And one of the examples that the gentleman shared with us was a 3D model that, you know, just like any other you've seen, essentially some firm was showing off, Hey, we use BIM and they showed a cross section of a project that they were doing. That was the public work. And, you know, he pointed out a lot of the security vulnerabilities of that, that you would not look at as an average person or someone coming from the industry. I saw that picture and I was like, great.

It made the cover of this magazine and more people in the industry are using 3D. Yeah. And they're sharing that they're using 3D. Awesome. And then it was like, yeah, and you just showed terrorists where they could introduce a biological elements, you know, where security rooms are, where cables going into an adjacent building are.

And so I think that that's how you mitigate, right? The security leaks is you one be smart about how do you store your data online? How do you give permissions and access to that data? Oh yeah. I think that's an excellent example.

Yeah. I think it's coming back to the focus of collaboration from what I hear and understand, I haven't had the opportunity to participate yet. I understand it's about collaboration. It's about making those next steps to really just make a difference and start that change, get the community moving in the right direction to be more innovative and use technology. And that being said, getting the right people, if they're in security or the facility manager or the owner, we talk from the owner's perspective, primarily on the podcast here, but the architect, the engineer, the software developer, the contractor, of course, everybody needs to come to the table at some time and speak their piece about their concerns and their value needs to really be shared and understood.

One thing that I've been hearing from you is that, you know, it's really a community focus. So I wanted to ask you, what's your vision for the hackathon, for AEC hackathons in the future? I guess I really hope that there's no need for an AEC hackathon in the future, that the industry is just innovating. And if there is a need to have an AEC hackathon, it's not so much of a necessity, right? It's just more of like a, Hey, this will be a fun, productive exercise to go do this weekend.

But we don't really need to build anything there because, you know, at the office, we're on all the apps that we want. That to me is, is what I would like to see is that there is not a need for it anymore because everyone is innovating. Everyone's getting that opportunity to do what they could do at a hackathon, either at their firm or somewhere in the industry. I love that. You're considering the safe space to be everywhere.

And I think there's a cultural shift that has to take place. What do you think the steps are to make that happen? Obviously have more hackathons, but like, what would you recommend to the listener, like in order to make those steps? It's like you said, it's creating that safe space. I've had people say this and that's why I observe it and I share it.

Cause you know, anyone can, you know, be the proud parent and talk about how great their kid is, but when other people bring up the value that they find in something, that's what resonates. And for me, there's been many things where people said, this provided me an avenue for collaboration. Like there was one event in particular in Seattle where the team introduced themselves. They made a point to say, look at the logos from the different team members. Monday through Friday, we compete tomorrow.

We're going to compete. We respect each other, but we're not friends, right? We're competing firms. But this weekend we came together, we saw that this was a problem and we solved and so that's one of those things is for people to realize that collaboration is not bad. It's not a sign of weakness.

Asking someone, Hey, can you help you? Can you provide some value? Another thing it requires is that you actually share all the data. I've never been amazed by an industry that, you know, you come into it and you're like, wow, you guys share all this amazing data. And then you find out like, Whoa.

And that was actually a comment from one of the very first hackathon. One woman shared that, you know, she had been in the industry for years and this was her first chance to actually sit down with GC and the structural engineer and other people that are in the process and just have open dialogue. And so that was interesting. I think the other thing that was brought up, the reference to the way that the hackathon is crowd wise is the way that the industry needs to go.

And what I mean by that is when people come in, there is no affiliation. Like we don't say what company, we're just you. And it's the value you bring to the team. And it doesn't matter if you're 14 or you're 90, if you're black, white, yellow, green, it doesn't matter male, female. And so I think that's the thing that's awesome is that, you know, if you look at the pictures of the teams, it's people of multiple different generations, multiple different races, backgrounds, and all of that stuff, and everyone else is respecting everyone else's opinion.

I think that's that shift that the industry needs to be is because I'm tired of seeing people of any age that are put off by the people who embrace technology, or they say, I don't understand where the young people are. So I'm not going to hang out with them. Or I don't understand where the old people are and I'm not going to hang out with them. I think breaking down all of those walls to where it's just like, you know what? You're a good human.

I'm good human. We care about this. We want to solve that. Let's go for it. And that's what I hope bleeds out into the rest of everything is right.

It's not about the old school hierarchy. Young techie nerds bring in something to the people that sit up top and, you know, I don't understand how that works, but just do it. No, you know, get involved, right? If you can't give technical chops or familiarity, you know, being a digital native and contribute your expertise, guide how that application. And so those are the things that I think are awesome.

That's what I'd love to see go out into the rest of the industry. And if that happens, then that's why, like I said, I hope that there will be no more need for an AEC hackathon. I really appreciate their perspective. And I second that we need to all take responsibility, just like you've mentioned. What are the best ways to contact you and learn more about what you're doing?

You can definitely find me on Twitter. Twitter handle is a at metaverse one and then email AEC hackathon website. If you send something through info, if you're interested to learn more about the hackathons can do that. LinkedIn, all that good stuff. The only thing I ask is if I don't know you, please don't Facebook me, but outside of that, anything else I'm pretty open to responding.

Damon, this has really been super fun. Thanks for being on the podcast. Yeah, thank you. It has always an honor to be able to share such a great community. Thanks for listening to this interview with Damon Hernandez.

I am inspired to solve a problem today. How about you? Find Damon Hernandez and more info about AEC hackathons in the show notes at constructor.com slash EP 62. If you learned something valuable in this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues. You can also let me know if you enjoyed our discussion by connecting with me on Twitter at Brittany underscore CT or find me on LinkedIn, or you can just email me to at Brittany at constructor.com.

That's B R I T T A N I E at construct double R.com. Next week, we will be speaking with John Gordon, author of quite a few bestsellers, including the energy bus. You win in the locker room first, the no complaining rule and the most recent book that was released last year, the power of positive leadership. He actually just finished up a book called the power of a positive team that will be released this year as well. So John not only as a great author and sought after keynote speaker, but he has consulted with college and professional sports teams and large companies, some of which include the L.A.

Dodgers, Atlanta Falcons, Campbell's soup, Dell Publix, Southwest Airlines, L.A. Clippers, Miami Heat, Pittsburgh Pirates, Northwestern Mutual Bayer and the West Point Academy. He's teaching them about how and why they should live with more vision, passion, positivity and purpose. Because we discuss building more trusting relationships, we talk about respecting people and exceeding the end user's desires. I thought we'd take a step back and talk about positive leadership, which impacts all of those things.

We need so much more leadership from all different levels and all different layers and all the different parts and pieces that we have in the A E C O industry. And so I wanted to have a fun discussion with John Gordon on how to do that more effectively. So I look forward to sharing that interview with you guys next week. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast, you can do so at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, TuneIn and iHeartRadio. You can also find replays on Periscope if you are connected with me on Twitter.

Please leave a review to show your support and let me know you're enjoying the podcast. I look forward to talking with you guys next week.