Transcript: 7 Cutting Edge Tech Tools that are Disrupting Design - with Bill Debevc

Hello, I'm Brittany Campbell-Turner and this is the Constructor Podcast, session number 25. Hello and welcome to this episode of Constructor, the best way to build it. This podcast is dedicated to helping property owners have certainty in their decisions about their construction projects. We want to help property owners foster trusting relationships with your project teams, help you understand how to lower risk, be under budget and on schedule in your construction projects, and exceed your end users' desires. This episode features Bill DeVevec, who is an amazing podcaster in the AEC industry.

We will talk extensively about BIM Thoughts, his podcast, and that's how I found him, but we'll talk about that a little bit later. One thing that's amazing about him is how he blends his IT background with design. That's a unique perspective than what we typically hear on the Constructor Podcast. We actually get to nerd out a little bit on AEC tech, the future of it, and how it benefits everyone who is working with it, which ultimately impacts the success of projects. A couple of the topics we touch on are virtual reality, augmented reality, iterative and generative design, and BIM caves.

We also talk about the different levels of BIM management. If you hold a BIM manager role at your company, you should be paying attention to Bill at BIM Thoughts and any of his other podcasts that we will mention later on the show. Without further ado, here is my interview with Bill. Welcome to the Constructor Podcast, Bill. It is a pleasure to have you on.

Really? It is. Wow. It's a pleasure to be here as well. I'm quite excited.

I don't get interviewed much. Well, it's great to be on the other side of things from time to time, isn't it? I think it's a little scarier to be on the other side of things because you have to sound smarter than you actually are. Well, I think you're a pretty smart guy. You definitely have a different perspective on design than most people, and I think you're going to speak to our audience in a little bit different way than they're used to.

So I'm excited about that. Me too. So you're a software specialist at LPA, an architecture firm. And we're an integrated design firm. It's a little bit different than architecture because LPA, we do architecture, interior Design, MEP, engineering, structural engineering, civil engineering, landscape, signage, and sports and rec.

So you guys do the broad gamut. We do just about everything, and it's all in-house. So behind me where I sit are the landscape people. A little over to the right are the structural people. Behind them are civil.

So everyone is real close together, and so they all work with each other very easily. And so what makes an integrated firm different than a normal firm is when the structural engineer has a question of the architect, they just get up and go walk over there and talk to the architect, or they do a Skype message. And it's very quick, and things get handled and questions get answered quicker, which we think is better for the client in the long run. Yeah, I think that's great. I like that you even define yourselves as an integrated design company.

Correct. Uh-huh. As opposed to architecture with all the disciplines, because that doesn't mean that you integrate design as seamlessly as you just laid out somebody simply just sending that message and getting a clear thought. Yeah, and there's lots of integrated firms, and there's even firms that even do more than LPA does, like you'll have a firm that also does the construction. Unless they call themselves an integrated firm, then they're just a firm with a bunch of disciplines.

Awesome. So I don't want to leave out the fact that you are also a fellow podcaster. I am. At BIM Thoughts. BIM Thoughts and Cat Thoughts, Rev it Up Ed, and I have a network called Shared Coordinates.

So that's lovely to hear. You've been making a grave impact here in the AAC industry. So thank you for that. Hey, you're welcome. Yeah.

Yeah, it's fun. I'm learning a lot. I agree. It is fun. And with how much you've done so far, I will probably have some stories to exchange here about how much fun we've had.

So the first question I had for you was, you're getting asked the questions this time, so get over it. So as a software specialist, what do you do at LPA? What do I do at LPA? Well, my official title is analyst programmer, which is a software specialist as well. My official job is to determine what areas can be improved as far as for automation goes and then figure out the right solution for those things.

That's my official job. What I actually do is other duties as assigned, and like everyone else in the industry does. And so I do whatever needs to be done to get things done. So for projects that I have done, internal projects that I'm proud of is we've created a new request form inside of Vision that the project managers go in and fill out all the information and then they hit a button and it creates the project in Vision and the contracts and all that other good stuff.

So that was a big project to do. The other one is we converted our intranet over to knowledge architecture synthesis product. And that has been a big project as well. Big learning project for me because it's all SharePoint based and all that other fun stuff, fun and air quotes. So what does that allow them to do?

Does it just help with their collaboration or? Yeah, what Synthesis does that regular SharePoint doesn't do is it has a sharing component to it. So it's sort of, you can do, anyone can post something in Synthesis and it appears to everyone else. And there's also a app for your mobile phone and things like that. So it is a great platform for sharing information and a great platform for asking information.

And we're getting some good traction with that. It's also a great place to keep all of our knowledge. So it's where we have all of our guidelines and all that other good stuff is all inside of what we call Interact. That is the name of our SharePoint site or our Synthesis site. OK, so it sounds like what Synthesis allows you to do that's a little bit beyond SharePoint is to have the dialogue about the actual information that is within the document management tool.

Well, it doesn't do comments on the documents, which would be cool. But you can go in and share something and say, hey, we just did an opening of this project or kudos to blah, blah, blah. It allows people, instead of just absorbing the content, to actually participate in the content. And we're hoping that it also morphs into a place for people to ask questions. And my ultimate goal of this thing is how we're an integrated firm.

We also have five total locations. I'd like to get all of that merged digitally. So it's not like, oh, the Irvine office did this or the San Diego office did this. It's LPA did this. And try to help create tools to integrate us not only internally in the same building, but externally with all of our other sites.

I mean, that, I think, is something that a lot of the companies are trying to do. And I think that makes a whole lot of sense to pursue that effort. Because you're speaking as one company. You're speaking as one voice. Right.

And it all starts with not saying an office name anymore. And so it really starts with the people. It doesn't start with the technology. You've got to get everyone thinking of a whole office or a company as opposed to an office. Same thing with every company out there.

They have multiple offices. Yeah. Having listened to some of your podcasts, I have understood that the way LPA works is you guys, even though you're in IT, per se, you don't act as a support team. You really work alongside the designers who work within your firm. It really truly is an integrated design team with all the elements.

They're collaborating together on how to achieve these goals that you're discussing here. Right. Glenn Carroll is one of the principals of the firm. He came up with the fact that everyone in LPA is a designer. So from the front desk person to me in the ID department, Inspire Design.

So in the Inspire Design ID department and all the other support departments as well were all designers because I'm designing tools for the architecture and the engineers to use. So I'm a designer as well. I love that. And we also integrated our IT department as well because in the past you would have design technologies or currently, I guess it's the past for us because we don't do it anymore. A lot of companies have an IT department, an IS department, and a DT department.

So information technology, information systems, and design technologies as three different components. And those components don't, they talk to each other, but they're separate silos. So if the design technology needs to get something done on the workstation end or on the network end, they have to interface with those guys and then they have to create a meeting. And it's sort of like talking to like a different company. Now at LPA, we don't do that anymore.

We're all one entity or we're all one group, one team. And so I can go in and make recommendations and they'll say, yeah, go do that. And then I actually do that work sometimes. So it's quite fun. I get to do other things other than just sitting behind and typing in code all day.

I get to actually make deployments or do other things like that. That's awesome, actually. I really love that model of everyone is a designer. I think that's, it's so interesting how identity can change the way people work. And I think that's something that we probably discussed quite a bit here on the Constructor podcast.

Just the way people value their skill set and can articulate that based upon the platform in which it's set up to discuss your opinion. If it's not siloed anymore and everybody is kind of on an uneven playing field, then you have the opportunity to just take the ideas and run with it with no true bias one way or another. So I love that. Yeah. I love that you guys are doing that.

That's fun. And we're taking it to a whole new level this year with our design compass. And our design compass is a guide for all of our designers to use to make sure that we have all of the right people involved. So as we, let's say we put more stuff into the conceptual part, we have too much conceptual but don't have enough research, for example, that compass is going to lead us into the research area or lead us somewhere else to make sure that we have a nice balanced approach for everything.

So that's the big thing moving forward is to become balanced. OK. So let me get a better understanding about how, like, say, for instance, design compass, how do you actually approach that? Who are you talking with when you're developing the design compass, for instance? Who are the main roles that you end up collaborating with?

So the way I'm looking at it right now, and this is new to me, the way I'm looking at it right now is we'll have our IT on one end and the users on the other end, research on the other quadrant. So there's four quadrants, research in one quadrant. And then opposite to that research is the technology that we're going to be using. So what happens a lot of times is you get so focused on your team and what technology you need to use in your team to make the solution work, you forget about the users and you forget about doing research to find if there's a better tool out there.

And so the compass with the four quadrants and you put all of those things in those quadrants, you want that it's almost like a level, if you will. If one of the quadrants is too heavy, that level is going to point to the spot where you need to where you need to to look and to do some work at. And what you want to do is get that level in the center. So if we're constantly focused on us as the IT, how do we make our jobs better?

And we don't focus on how to make the users or our designers jobs better, then that's we're not in balance. So who helped to develop the design compass itself? Design compass was done by Glenn. OK. I like that.

Among them thoughts to explain it even more. Yeah. I think that that's something that you guys, it sounds like, have already been pursuing from the past. And you're just articulating that and making that a focus. What we're doing is we're evolving the principles that we have as a firm into tools to help us use those principles.

We're evolving everything to make it better, easier. So we use that stuff. OK. Well, what is your interface like with, say, a BIM manager on a day to day basis? OK.

Well, let's define what a BIM manager is, because I have a little bit different definition for a BIM manager than most people do. OK. I think there's three levels of BIM management. The first level is the principles. And the principles of the firm are defining the direction that they want the firm to go with technology.

They're defining this is where we want to be in the future. The BIM manager is the person who takes that information and figures out which technologies, which training, which software, which hardware needs to happen, all of that stuff needs to happen in order to get the designers to do that, to get that goal, to reach that goal. And then the third level is the modeler or the lead modeler. And the lead modeler is almost a traditional BIM manager level person. They know all about Revit or whatever software they're using to get the model done.

But they're in the trenches. They're doing the work. They're the lead modeler of the project. And that's where all the feedback comes from on how we can make things better from our ID perspective. What is working?

What technology have we introduced is working? What technology have you found that we need to research and see if it fits within everything else? And so those three levels, working with each other and knowing their purpose really makes things work quite well. Because one of the challenges you have as an IT person or even as a non-IT person as the user in air quotes is you say, hey, I want to use this product. I want to use this statistical software.

And then they ask the IT department, I need this software. Well, the challenge for the IT person in that is does this software, is it overlapping with something we already have? Is the licensing structure going to work for LPA? How much is it? How much value are we going to get out of it?

What hardware does it need? What other software does it need? So it just isn't going out and buying the software and installing it on somebody's computer. When you've got 300 people that you have to support and you introduce one piece of software, you've got to see what it does to all the other software because you don't want to break something. And that's why it takes so darn long to get something approved through your traditional IT department because they have to test all of those things.

OK, so given that that's the understanding and I've seen it in some of my clients that I've worked with, exactly that trend, right? Many decisions are made outside of the IT department and they've been asked to implement it. And they haven't been asked to go through that review process to see how much it can integrate with other software that they're already using. So we understand that this is a worldwide challenge at this point. And it's a balancing act as well.

Because you don't want to be that buzzkill that stops people from doing great things. So I really like the fact that you distinguish that there are certain tiers, if you will, when it comes to BIM management. Or and you could even venture to say it's called BIM leadership. Yeah, I kind of like to distinguish the two because leadership really gives the autonomy to everyone to go ahead and take on the responsibility of contributing. Instead of management, where you're kind of talking down to people, that's the way I see it in my mind, at least.

So I really like the fact that there's that middle person that you described, where they're determining how all of these pieces, tech, training, software, hardware, all the little pieces kind of come together in order to achieve the overarching goal for the company or the future, you know, the goal of what you're trying to achieve for integration. Right. I think that's also something that sometimes is missed. There's no one key person making sure that things are standardized. There may be a goal and yes, we're all charging towards that.

And guess what? Everybody needs to do it, but there's no standardization in order to figure, you know, okay, well, who's thought about the best way to do this? So I think that's a key role that you described there. But I think there's a missing part as well. The missing part is what's best for the client, what's best for the building owner.

Does getting this piece of software really help LPA get the vision of the building owner done to what he wants, get the building built the way the owner wants it built? Does Saphira make sense or should we go to Insight 360 or should we use some other energy analysis software or should we use all of them and compare the data and create our model so that it works the way we need it to go? So I think that a lot of other companies may lose sight or a lot of not companies.

I'll have to edit that out. I think a lot of IT departments lose sight of we aren't doing this for the user. We're doing this for our client to make the client's dreams possible. And that's where you need to be. That's where you need to think.

How is this going to help the product? Absolutely. And I think that's something I'm always asking as an owner's rep. What really makes the most sense here? Are we spending our dollars in the right way?

Right. Are we doing this thing because it's cool or are we doing this thing because it's going to save us some money? Is it going to save us? Yeah, exactly. Or are we going to have a better building, a better environment for everybody because we're doing this thing?

Does lead really matter? Do we need to go down that path? And we need to think about our client's client, whoever that may be. You got to go down the entire sales process. How are they going to save money when it comes to providing whatever services they need to provide to their customer?

So sometimes we even miss that. And I think it's becoming better at asking those type of questions that will get us there. And yes, we tend to focus on what's here and now and right in front of us. Right. And that's one thing that LPA does with the schools that we build.

Is the architects and the designers and the engineers in some cases will go out to the existing school and will hold workshops with the parents and find out, and the students for that matter, and find out what they're interested in for their new school. And so they'll put a bunch of boards up with the questions that they've learned from meeting with the parents and give everybody little dots and they go around and put dots on the boards of what they think is most important. And they don't have an infinite supply of dots.

They only have like five or six dots. So they've got to use those dots wisely. Yeah, you really do have to prioritize what you're going to focus on. And then how does that fit within your budget? How does that fit within your time schedule?

So all of those things need to be taken into account. It's a darn budget part. Yes. If only we had an infinite. Yes.

OK, so coming back to our question. OK. Did I answer that? I guess I had an answer. What is your involvement with BIM managers?

OK, so at this point, I'm assuming that your principals, they've laid the lay of the land out for you guys. Yes, we want a BIM future. We want to utilize it where we can to help our customers the best way we can. And I'm imagining, and you please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm imagining that you're getting involved with that person who is setting up the standards, if you will, deciding what best to deploy. And then the person who is the traditional role of the lead modeler, if you will.

Right. So my job is what I do at LPA is to help the BIM manager in creating the deployments, creating all the customization to make sure that it all works properly. And then the BIM manager's job is to take it from there and debug it. Well, not debug it, but find the problems in it. Then I fix those, obviously.

And then lay it and then train and install. Or install and train, actually. You have to do it in that order, install then train. You don't train then install. And the reason you do it, install then train, because if there's a challenge in trying to get it out and installed, and you've already done the training, now you've wasted that opportunity.

You've wasted the excitement of the new tool coming. So you have to have it installed first and then train. And they have to be real close to each other. So my job is to get the, for the BIM managing part, my job at LPA is to do the deployments, help with the customization, either do it myself, find someone who can do it, and make sure it gets done the way we want it to get done. Okay.

How much customization is done from project to project, depending on what the client's needs are? Customization in the tool? We don't really customize a tool project to project, per se. We won't make a tool just for one project, that doesn't make sense. Unless it's a big project.

That's where Dynamo comes in, and that's where we have our Dynamaniacs groups inside of LPA, where we teach how to do Dynamo. And Dynamo is a programming language built inside, it's a graphical programming language built inside of Revit, that is, once you start getting the hang of it, it's pretty darn easy and pretty powerful to use. And so our designers are starting to use that, use Dynamo, and that's for project to project customization. But as far as for the customization that I do, I normally don't do it in Dynamo, I'll do it in other programming languages, because it'll be firm wide and it'll be a little bit more robust, because it'll need to work with other projects or with every project.

Okay. So I guess the reasoning behind my question is based upon the required delivery for design. And it sounds like that there is no software need, no programming change need, typical for each individual project. It sounds like it's there, and if there is a design process that will need to change for whatever reason, based upon, it could be the delivery method of the project, for instance. If there's a change in that, there's no change in software that needs to take place, based upon how you guys have deployed the utilization of them within your life.

Well, it depends on the delivery method. Are you referring to how we get the design out to the contractor and to the owner, or are you referring to something different? Well, I guess there are a couple of things at play. So there's a question of BIM process. And from what I understand, and I'm sure you...

I need to listen to probably 50 more of your episodes to get a better understanding of BIM thoughts. But from what I understand here, based upon my exposure to, for instance, the British Standards Institute, and the BIM process, Institute, and the different levels that there are for implementing BIM, there's different ways that you can collaborate, there are different processes that you can go ahead and take forth within design, where you design one model, and because you're an integrated company, fortunately you have the capability to utilize in-house engineers, the engineering disciplines, and have them speak to the same model.

But say, for instance, they were not in-house to you guys, and you had to go ahead and contract with another design firm, you may have to go ahead and have them send in and integrate, and then do clash detection versus working off of one model throughout the entire design process. We don't work off of one model. We tried that. And if you're interested in how that went, I do have a talk with Charlie Williams at the Build Conference. We are going to be talking about how to do BIM with one model, and what the drawbacks and what the advantages of that were.

But currently we're doing separate models for each discipline. Okay. And the reason we're doing that is because of the deliverable, I believe. Nick or Charlie would be better answer that question. But we are doing it traditional, different models for the different disciplines now.

And we do class detection with NavVis works, and with inside of Revit and all the other good stuff. Okay. So if you guys have the one way you're typically approaching things, I like that you're testing the one model, and I do want to know more about that. So we'll catch up on that a bit later. So it sounds like you have one general approach on approaching design, at least from a modeling perspective.

But then also for delivery, so that moves on to the next category that was in my head. For actual project delivery, if it's design build or integrated project delivery, the design itself too would have to progress in a different manner as well. And there's different deliverables as well. I mean, there's a different deliverable that you would give, depending on what your contract is stating or what you're providing as a product to the client. There's a different thing that we have to give to the government, to the plan checkers, than we could give to the contractors.

So for example, in my episode 33 of BIMThoughts, I was talking with Kelly Cohn, and he was with Beck Group. And he was talking about it, because I asked him, is BIM worth it? Is it worth doing all of this extra work on his end? And he says, absolutely. When he can get the BIM model from, oops, I just killed a kitten, if he can get the model from the architect and use the model to create the sections and all of those other things that he needs to build the building, it's a much easier, much better product.

If he's just using the traditional 2D paper plans or PDFs, it's you have all of the same challenges you had before. But you really need both in order to get things done, because the building department, they're not accepting models still. They're still accepting 2D plans. Yeah. So you're battling a couple fronts, if you will.

Right. Yeah. And then you have to decide, is it worth even going to BIM from the architect's point of view? A lot of small architects still aren't using Revit. They're still drawing things in AutoCAD, and they're still using lines and offsets and blocks to draw their buildings.

And so what we found out using Revit a long time ago, back with my other firm, Freedman Group, is we don't really save any time in doing Revit. It's not costing our clients any less money to use Revit. But what we're giving them is a better informed model. We're giving them a model. And we're giving them, ultimately, at the end, a better coordinated set of plans to reduce the RFIs and change orders.

Well, so in the long run, you do save them money. You save the owner's money. The architect doesn't get any more money.

Unless you're doing like what you did in an episode or two ago with your podcast, where they are incentivized by change orders and things, which I thought was an interesting idea. Yeah. Or not incentivized by change order. They were profit sharing. Is that what they were doing?

Yeah. They utilized the integrated lean project delivery model. And they actually did the IFOA integrated form of agreement, where everybody had shared risk, shared reward. And if you want to call that incentivization, I would agree. Everyone takes part in the reward if they promote the most value that they possibly can.

And then if they fail to do that, then yeah, they also take part in the risk. Yeah. Pretty cool stuff. Okay. So I think I have a much better understanding of what your company has been doing, LPA, and a little bit about what your role is in getting the deployment going.

There's probably going to be nuances just based upon the project delivery that the actual property owner, the end user, if you will, chooses to decide to move forward with. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's really cool. Thanks for sharing about LPA and what you do there.

And I really like the approach. Good. I'm glad you do. I like it too. It's one of the best companies.

It probably is the best company I've worked for as far as the design goes. My last company was at USCA. That was a great company too. But that was a whole different ballgame. That was the reseller channel world.

And so that's a completely different ballgame than the architecture design world. Okay. Well, let's take a moment and step back. Now that we kind of know about what you're doing on a day-to-day basis from year nine to five, if you will, I'd like to ask you more questions about BIM Thoughts and how that came about. And why did you decide to start that particular podcast as well as any of the others that you'd like to mention?

Okay. Well, I started BIM Thoughts when I was at USCA. And we had a company meeting where they said, we would like everyone to talk to a thousand different companies in a year. And so that was the challenge put on the table, if you will. And so I thought, well, how am I going to, how should I do that?

Because I am tech support, or not tech support, I'm a consultant at that point. And so I need to be billing. So I decided to start BIM Thoughts to see what would happen. And I also decided to start BIM Thoughts to see if I could monetize the thing, which is kind of strange. Because my daughter was getting ready to go to college and I thought this would be a good way to supplement that.

So she could go to college and I could help pay for it or pay for it for that matter. But then it started to morph into something bigger than that. It started to morph into something that the BIM community, the Revit community, if you will, started to get some value out of. And I started to get more value out of it as well. So at first it started with just, hey, this is all about me, about me, about me.

And then it started to evolve into something bigger than I thought it was ever going to be. I had a goal of reaching a thousand people in the first year. And I got a thousand people halfway through the second month. And I counted that by downloads. And then I said, well, let's up the goal a bit.

Let's try to reach as many people as attend AU in its busiest year. And we were able to achieve that a couple months ago. And that's Autodesk University for those who may not know. Okay. Right.

And so we have tens of thousands of people now listening to BIM Thoughts every month, which is exciting. That's fantastic. It is fantastic. And so I also started Mac Thoughts. I thought that would be the big one.

I thought that would be the breadwinner. But I can get that market is too saturated for podcasts. So BIM Thoughts started to go. And yesterday we started Cat Thoughts with Katie King. She is with USCat and she's one of the leaders in the AutoCat world.

So we're actually, I don't know if you want to call it stepping back, but it isn't stepping back because civil engineers and landscape, they're still in AutoCat because that's still the best tool. Surfaces inside of Revit just don't cut it yet. So we're still using AutoCat simple 3D for that. And so we started that. I reached out to some of the BIM leaders that I think are leaders out in the industry.

And before starting BIM Thoughts, I thought, well, these great guys like Steve Stafford, Paul Aubin, Phil Reed, Jim Balding, all these names that I'm dropping on the floor, these were like the big guys that really knew BIM and what was going on with that. And now I'm getting, people are coming up and talking to me now at conferences where before I was going up and talking to them. So that's a big change. Then we started, or I started the Shared Coordinates Podcast Network. And what that is intended to be is to allow anyone who's interested in being a podcaster in the same field, they can be on the Shared Coordinates Podcast Network, which right now is just a website, but we're trying to make it a little bit more as we go along.

And hopefully create a spot where people can go to find other podcasts that will interest them. And so that's started. And I just really like doing it. I like being involved. I've ended up learning more than teaching.

And that always happens when you do teaching or things like that, talking about stuff. So I always learn a lot more about what's going on. And I always tell my guests, hey, if I'm incorrect, correct me. And so that's always fun as well when they do that, because I enjoy being corrected, believe it or not, because I need to know, I need to know the right way of doing things. So I don't know if that answers your question or not.

It does. I'm really happy that you have fun on your podcast because it is so much more enjoyable to listen to anyone who's having fun. And honestly, you can genuinely tell that you're having fun. So first of all, I appreciate that. And there's been a few podcasts we haven't aired because we've had too much fun.

Well, the listeners have to have fun too. That's right. Well, it has to be a good podcast. You just can't be drinking whiskey all night and talking about Bim. That's right.

So we're not drinking whiskey right now. No, it's in the middle of the day. No, we're not. We're not drinking whiskey or any alcoholic beverage for that matter. But I am looking at an empty bottle of tin cup.

So I need to go to another bottle. Okay. Well, you mentioned you learned a lot. And I think that's something that's definitely taking place with me as well. And I think that is something just so invaluable that you get from starting a podcast.

So I really like the idea of the Shared Pop Coordinated Podcast Network. Okay. Yeah, I think that's... And the artwork will pop in on there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sounds good. So just given the fact that you're learning so much, could you narrow down maybe the top three things that you're learning, that you have learned? Well, the top thing is I've learned I don't know as much as I thought I did about Bim. That's the top thing. The things that I'm interested in these days is iterative design and generative design.

I think that's where the next evolution is. Could you explain that a little bit? Yeah, because if we look back at the history, and I always like to go back to the history of things, because I'm old, and so I know these things. Or not. AutoCAD is what, 30-some years old right now.

And when Revit came on board and started taking off, it was, AutoCAD I think was 16 years old. Today, Revit is 16 years old. So if we look at history, there's got to be something new coming along as far as what's going to replace Revit or make Revit different than it is today. And I think that is Dynamo, which is iterative design. And I think that's the thing that's going to be the most important thing and then we've got the generative design with project Fractal is taking what we're doing now with iterative design and Dynamo.

So iterative design, a classic example of iterative design is looking at those buildings that twist, for example. And so we can do that programmically. We can say how far we want them to twist per floor and things like that. Or another example of iterative design that's all the rage now, according to Bill Allen, is randomness when it comes onto your curtain walls. So that seems to be in vogue as well.

And Dynamo can do that with iterative design. And so you use Dynamo to do that. Let's take the curtain walls, for example. And so you can hit a button and it will randomize all of those panels in the storefront. If you don't like it, you can hit the button again and it will randomize it again.

And then you can take whichever ones you like after you've done like three or four that you've found or five or six. It depends on what's going on. And then you present those to the client and say, well, which one do you like? So iterative design helps you do that quicker. So you don't have to do that meticulous task.

You can do that in a day and a half as opposed to a day per one or half a day per one. Generative design is a little bit different. Generative design is where we take the building program, not the program as far as the computer program, but the program as the owner has described it. I need this much square footage for this, this much square footage for that. And we put all of that into the program and then it starts laying out things.

We give it some more parameters, how tall we want the building to be, what the area we can use. And it starts to figure out how to fit all of those pieces in there and gives us options for different kinds of designs. And that's generative design as it's sitting today. I think that's where things are going. I think where we're going is to a point where we're going to be telling the computer what we want instead of instructing the computer of what we want.

Yeah. I think it just kind of blew my mind a little bit. Mine too. Yeah. And yeah, I know.

And the third, the other two things that we're working on or interested in is energy analysis and VR. And VR right now is big. Everybody wants to do VR. And the tools that we have today with Enscape, with HTC Vive, with Revit, with Lumia, and some other products really make VR sing. So today you can throw on an HTC Vive headset, launch Revit, connect it with Enscape, and Enscape is rendering your Revit model real time.

So as you move something in the Revit model, it re-renders it real time. The person in the Vive sees it almost instantly. Within a half a second to a second. So they can be, our client can be inside of the HTC Vive looking at the model and says, I want that over this a little bit further. Move that door a little bit.

The designer can just move the door and they don't even have to hit the sync button. It updates instantly inside of the Vive, which is very, very cool. And the other thing that I found out about the Vive is your sense of space is pretty darn close to your normal sense of space. So if you walk into a room and you feel that the room is too small or too big or just right, it's pretty darn close to what it will be when it gets built.

Yeah, that, I mean, that takes away the need for a mock-up at that point. Yeah, it's scary. Mm-hmm. I love, I love what your top things are. I was going to ask the question a different way.

I was going to ask, how does this impact a client? What are the things that you think? But each one of these impacts how easily an end user can make a decision about something. And that's what I actually love the most about your responses. Even though you're just intrigued by them, they really do follow through that entire process.

Energy analysis too, even though you didn't expound too much on that. I mean, people can make better decisions about their life cycle costs. And VR, if you can really determine what the space is going to look and feel like in a virtual reality headset, that is pushing the needle. Yeah. That is definitely doing that.

That is pushing the needle. Yeah. I'm also intrigued with not virtual reality, but augmented reality. Because augmented reality interests me more than virtual reality. And augmented reality is the Microsoft HoloLens.

So with the HoloLens, you can get multiple people with HoloLenses on. All looking at the same model at the same time. And it takes it to a whole new level. Because what happens is, is you're there with the client to learn what the client wants. And the client's going to have a few reps with him.

You're going to have a few designers with you. And you're all trying to talk out the design and how you can make the design better. If one person's sitting inside of the HTC Vive and you can't share that experience, then what the heck is the meaning for? Because you need to collaborate with each other. So I think where it's going next is the augmented reality.

And so that you can actually see the person that you're in the meeting with through the lens. You're seeing them in real time because they're standing right next to you. And you're seeing the design. You're walking through the building at the same time. That's where I think VR is headed.

And you know what? The technology already exists in gaming. So it's just taking that next step and really applying it to the real world. Applying it to the built environment. Uh-huh.

And we just recorded an episode of BIM Thoughts with Paul Aubin. And Paul Aubin is one of the... I think he's a leader in Revit and leader in BIM as far as the technology and teaching goes. And he was showing us a product where you can be... where you can use the Google Cardboard.

So one person can use the Google Cardboard and look around. But you're streaming what he's seeing on a big screen. So it takes it a little bit further and it makes it portable, if you will. So you don't have to take this huge case with all the HTC Vive stuff on it. You can just bring a Google Cardboard with the model.

Everyone can download the model on their own phone and they can view the model. Or they can just sit back and watch the big monitor and what the guy's looking at at the same time. How does that simplify those decision-making steps? That we sometimes take a while to get approvals on. I think that really...

that simplifies that whole pipeline, if you will. Yeah. I love it. Have you ever been in a BIM cave? I have not.

Have you heard of what a BIM cave is? I have. I have. But you can go ahead and explain for our listeners. You probably do a better job.

I went to a very large project here in the States and they had a BIM cave. And it's in a construction trailer. It was actually probably nine construction trailers or 12 construction trailers put together. And they had eight BIM cave rooms. And you walk into this BIM cave room and it's stadium-type seating where everyone is up just a little bit further than the other person.

And in the front there were... there were eight monitors. So that was two by four big 65-inch TVs in the front. And in front of your station that you sit in front of, so there's a desk and a chair and then up a level desk chair, up a level desk chair, you would sit and you would plug your laptop in and there would be a button that you would press to which screen you wanted your computer to show up on. And so they would have all of the the main players in the room at the same time.

They had the structural engineer, the MEP, the specialty piping guy, the civil guy, whoever needed to be in that room for that coordination meeting. And they would all have their models ready for them on their machines and NavVis works or whatever they're working with. And they would all be seeing the stuff at the same time. So as someone is making a change to the design, they could pop it up and say, okay, is that what you're looking for? Or they can say, okay, there's a clash here.

They would go and fix the clash and then update the model. So it's a pretty cool way of working. And when you have a fast-paced project like that one, that's how you have to work. That project isn't quite as fast-paced as casino work, but it was pretty fast-paced. Casino work is a completely different animal.

But the Bim K was pretty impressive. I can only imagine what that would be like if everybody was wearing headsets. Yeah. Well, and that kind of begs the next question. Imagine if our last planner, as we say in the lean construction world or your actual laborer or tradesman, is in that room understanding how those elements are being designed in order for them to contribute to the constructability of the design.

Imagine that last guy is a robot. With all the knowledge and wisdom of the trades partner. No knowledge or wisdom. The trades partner with the knowledge and wisdom is telling the robot wisdom. Telling the robot what to do.

But can you imagine if they're doing it that way? I can. But that goes back into the iterative and the generative again. I don't know. That's different.

That would be design. You would have the design figured out because it's darn hard to move a wall once you build it. Or I'm sorry, it's not hard. It's expensive to move a wall once you build it. Yeah, fair enough.

I guess there's the understanding that there's, at least the way we traditionally approach things, right? We have the majority of design done. And then we do shop drawings and we do submittals to clarify that design. There are those extra steps to finish it in order to actualize it and construct it. So having that trades partner available at the design phase where maybe the mechanical design is taking place in some tight quarters where something has to go through a structural beam or something like that and everybody's in the room.

And you have that trades partner saying, well, this can't go in there because I won't be able to install it. Imagine if they're in the room. That, at that stage, is where I'm talking about. Where they can actually contribute to that design. And that's what's happening in that M cave that I talked about.

They're all coming together and saying, all right, how are we going to solve this collision right here? How are we going to solve the fact that this coolant line is in the way of this electrical conduit and the HVAC system? What are we going to do to fix that? Yeah, it's a pretty neat environment to be in. And then people are probably listening to this podcast wondering, well, when am I going to find the time to do that?

I'm working eight hours a day or what have you. Well, to give you an example, we are recording this podcast on a Sunday. So it comes down to the fact that if I want to do the cool things, I need to invest in myself and I need to become the leader. And in order to become the leader, I need to do things outside of work hours. Yeah, I don't want to miss that point.

In order to do things differently, you have to go back and think about the way you've approached them in order to change. So you can't approach things exactly the same way. I can't think of the exact quote. Albert Einstein said something very similar to that. But yeah, I completely agree with you on that.

Yeah, me and Albert Einstein clocking in and clocking out every day. Yeah. Yeah. Took me a long time to learn that. Well, that's a good question that you brought up because that kind of leads into like one of my last questions that I have for you.

Oh, okay, good. This is not the last, but... Oh, it's not the last. Okay. It's not the last, but it's one of the last ones.

One of the last. Okay. You've got them all written down? More or less. Wow.

Everybody has to approach things differently, right? That's how it goes. So my question is around taking... It's around excuses. It's around...

Okay, now we know about the things you're excited about. I'm excited about them too now that you've shared them with me. And I'm sure everybody's excited who's listening here. Okay, there's a barrier to entry though, right? Yes.

And people understand that there is that barrier and there's a learning curve and it takes time. And I guess my biggest question is, what would you say to those people who are intimidated? And how would you debunk that? Especially for someone who is either a contractor or in the owner's role or even the architectures design role. How would you...

I don't know, you can go through each one or you could say broadly or whatever. Whatever you think is best. But I want to debunk that. I want to say that there is a way that we can take small steps to start learning more. And I want to know what your opinion is on that.

Well, you never stop learning. You never stop asking either. Just because the person above you in the org chart is above you, doesn't mean you can't go up and talk to them. So for example, I'll go up and talk to our CEO every now and then, say hello or ask him about what's going on or ask him about his day or things like that so that he knows who I am. If you go up and ask for things, you might just get them.

If you can prove that what you're trying to do is going to work, you might just be able to do that too. One of the neat things at LPA is they do professional development grants. And what the grant is, is it's a grant of time. And a grant of money for the equipment. So you can come up with an idea, let's say that I want to prove if this way of doing concrete is better or this design method is better or this software does what I want to do.

If you can get that down on paper and create a proposal for it and submit it to a professional grant, you might just get the time that you need to do it on company time and you might just get the equipment or software or whatever you need to prove if it works or not. And proving if it works, there's just as much value to the company if it works or if it doesn't work. Because if it works, that's great, you can start implementing it. But if it doesn't work, that's a good outcome as well.

Because now you've learned what not to do. So getting back to your question of how do we innovate, is that what we're trying to do? We're asking or? My main question is, how would you debunk the excuses that one might be making when they realize innovation should take happen or should happen? And they're trying to identify the obstacles here.

I really did like your response about going ahead and asking and proposing that you could find a different solution and just kind of jumping out there. Maybe they're talking to the wrong person. If they think what they're doing is correct and the person they're talking to isn't accepting it as correct or can't prove them incorrect successfully, then maybe you're talking to the wrong person. Maybe you're not at the right firm. Maybe you're not spending enough time to figure out if what you're thinking about, your innovation is correct.

If your challenge with innovation is you don't have enough time in the day or the company's not going to do it for me, that's the wrong attitude to have. You need to obviously do stuff for the company to make the company better because that helps everyone out. But you also need to do stuff to make yourself better as well because when you make yourself better, then you can move up into the company to do the things that you really want to do. We didn't all start with a cool job.

We all had to start somewhere. I started as a delivery driver and worked my way up. So it all starts with yourself, with learning and making sure that what you're presenting, you have enough information for the person you're talking to to make a decision. You just come up and say, hey, I want to try SketchUp. I think it's really going to be cool.

It's really going to help me do things. You're not going to get SketchUp because that's not a good enough argument. You need to come up to say, okay, I want to try SketchUp because it'll do this, this, this, and this. I've already tried it. It does this.

It does this great. It does this. Look what I've done. Can we start using this or can we explore using this in our design process? That's how you get something accomplished.

You don't get it accomplished just by complaining. I appreciate that answer. I really do. But you really do have to prove your hypothesis, if you will, before you go ahead. It's not only that you have to prove it.

The firm you're hiring has to prove it to you as well, right? So you're an owner's rep. You're hiring the architect, the design firm. You don't just hire them because they come up with the cheapest thing. Or because they sound good.

They have to prove it to you. You may not hire the cheapest firm. You're going to hire the best firm for the project. I hope. Absolutely.

It's the value that they're going to provide. What value are they providing? Are they going to give me what I want? Are they going to give me not only the model or the deliverable? Are they going to give me the building that I want?

Is the building going to perform the way we think it's going to perform? Or have we, even if it doesn't perform the way you want to perform, was the analysis an enjoyable process for you? And you both take credit and you both take blame for something that works and doesn't work. Because if you go back into buildings 10 years from now or five years from now and revisit that building and take all of the design criteria that you had when you designed the building and take a look at its use, I bet it's completely different today than what it was designed to be used for.

And you need to do that. You need to do those fact-finding missions. Even with software, I go back every now and then and say, okay, we've implemented this a little while ago. Are you using it? What can we do to make it better?

Same with buildings. Are you using that space? What can we do to make that space better? Words of wisdom by Bill DeVebbe. That is me.

Oh, man. First of all, once again, I should say thank you. Thank you for your words of wisdom and a little bit of a different perspective than what we've had here on the Constructor podcast. I don't want to finish the conversation here, but I think we'll finish the episode. We're at two Aubens.

Well, I do want to ask the question, though, how can people get in touch with you? How can they learn more about what you're doing? Yeah, share with us about that. They can find information about me by resume online at LinkedIn. They can just search my name.

They can find my podcast, The BIM Thoughts, and there's where you can click on the little spots to find me because my last name is hard to spell. It's my father's fault. And so you can find me on Twitter. I'm on Twitter. I started a new Slack channel that anyone is invited to join.

I don't know if Slack is going to take off and do what I think it's going to do or not. But I'm thinking it's a good way to discuss different things. So you can ask about that. I'll have the link to that in on BIM Thoughts. You can so Twitter, LinkedIn, BIM Thoughts.

Look for me in the iTunes store. Great. And I can go ahead and put those links in the show notes for easy access as well. Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

All right. Awesome. Thank you so much, Bill. And you're welcome. We'll talk soon.

Hey, you're welcome. We'll talk soon. Do it again sometime. Yes. Yes.

All right. If you liked this podcast, don't forget to subscribe at Constructor. That's ConstructRR.com. And to get email updates from me about upcoming podcasts. Also, you can subscribe at iTunes and Stitcher.

Also, if you want to hear more about BIM and haven't listened to these two episodes, please go check them out. One is with Nathan Wood, International BIM and IPD. You can find that in episode 15. And then also, how to develop a collaborative culture on every project with James Pease. And that's episode 22.

All right. Talk to you guys next week.